WW2 bombers. If Germany had the allies heavy bombers would they have won the war?
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Erich
the old Sage
in a word NOPE ! history channel has it wrong.......again. BV 238 was only in the prototype stage and never flew operationally. the ehaviest a/c in the world at the time supposedly how far do you think it could travel; ? ...............well not far enough
Lighthunmust
Banned
Those guys sure had big brass ones if they did! Planning a mission using an expensive limited production aircraft that involves a mid North Atlantic landing at sea to refuel is for crew that expect to die. I think I saw the same program you did. I don't think it was presented as fact, at most it was presented as possibly happening or a plan never really more than a slim possibility.
parsifal
Colonel
Landing a flying boat on the open ocean is almost impossible, except in the most calm of conditions. I doubt this ever happened.
Having said that I have seen a photo of a Japanese single engined float plane landing in the arctic, in the open ocean, in the wake of the seaplane tender, which is moving through light floating ice. The Japanese had the most advanced float plane force throughout the war, and unlike much of the rest of their air force, retained an experienced cadre of pilots. To undertake a mission like that took exceptional courage, and luck
Having said that I have seen a photo of a Japanese single engined float plane landing in the arctic, in the open ocean, in the wake of the seaplane tender, which is moving through light floating ice. The Japanese had the most advanced float plane force throughout the war, and unlike much of the rest of their air force, retained an experienced cadre of pilots. To undertake a mission like that took exceptional courage, and luck
Lighthunmust
Banned
It think landing in the wake of a ship was a common Seaplane technique. If I am not mistaken American capital ship scouts practiced this as well.
In a book I have at home about the "Amerika Bomber", they talk about this supposed mission of the Bv 238 to within sight of New York. My understanding from the book, the mission was planned to see if it would be possible, but was never undertaken. According to the book, U-Boots were planned for refueling. The idea was to use the plane to Bomb New York. As I said though the mission never took place (If I recall the book correctly, it might be time to read it again. 
).
).Lighthunmust
Banned
In a book I have at home about the "Amerika Bomber", they talk about this supposed mission of the Bv 238 to within sight of New York. My understanding from the book, the mission was planned to see if it would be possible, but was never undertaken. According to the book, U-Boots were planned for refueling. The idea was to use the plane to Bomb New York. As I said though the mission never took place (If I recall the book correctly, it might be time to read it again.
If I recall correctly the TV program may have mentioned that the risks involved were to be balanced against the terror of a raid using what is now called a "dirty bomb". By bombing at night, the U.S. would be forced divert significant resources to air defense and evacuate people, and critical industry and administrative functions from irradiated areas. Again this is if I am recalling this show correctly. I too may have read something years ago Adler. Its funny how these threads trigger old memories both clear and hazy.
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Lighthunmust
Banned
I am confused by your statement. I don't think they had any aircraft that actually flew to New York during the war. I believe Drew was flying a Mustang when he sunk the Bv238, is that correct?
- Thread starter
- #73
Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Big
Blohm Voss Bv 238 Flying Boat - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft
Better
Boeing 314 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interesting threads. Some of these are new to me.
Flying Boat Aircraft
WW2 Japanese Fighter Aircraft
There was a Catalina that used to make landings in Plymouth sound on airshow days. an impressive sight to say the least.
Cheers
John
Blohm Voss Bv 238 Flying Boat - History, Specs and Pictures - Military Aircraft
Better
Boeing 314 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Interesting threads. Some of these are new to me.
Flying Boat Aircraft
WW2 Japanese Fighter Aircraft
There was a Catalina that used to make landings in Plymouth sound on airshow days. an impressive sight to say the least.
Cheers
John
In 1936 Hitler redirected the German rearmament drive. Up until this point the strategy was a long-term programme geared towards fighting a lightning war for a couple of years backed up with total war capability after this. The foundation upon which the LW was created in the mid 1930s ,was to be a force of 400 multi engined strategic bombers to be used as a deterrents force against neighbors countries. The initial capability was formed with the rapid redesign of the fleet of Lufthansa Ju-52 planes into bombers as an interim measure.
This was to be replaced by a purpose designed 20 ton , 4 engined bomber at the end of that decade. This was to be either the Do-19 or the Ju-89, with a follow on bomber which became the He-177. Parallel with this was the development of a 7 ton schnell bomber capable of bombing carrying a 1000kg load 2000km at speeds of 500kph and was better than the Me-110 as a long range escort fighter....which was to be the original design for the Ju-88.
However about the time all this was to come together, Hitler redirected the war effort into an enlarged army to be ready for a limited war at the end of the decade. Hitler was convinced a total war capability was not needed. To meet the new target of over 100 land divisions plus the Westwall by the end of the 1930s, both the German navy and air force were sacrificed in the process.
The Multi engined bomber was scrapped and the Ju-88 was redesigned into a 12 ton medium slant bomber, since that was the only way Goering could keep up with Hitler's constant demands for more. The construction of all navy warships was also delayed a year in the process, while the army had to shelve their plans for more Panzer divisions and the motorization of the Heer as well, in order to meet Hitler's constant demands for more.
Once the war began the overriding logic of needs of an ongoing developing totalwar took over and much that was possible was scrapped. Reportedly 1/2 of the planned navy capital ships were scrapped along with the prewar mobilization surface fleet inorder to meet Hitlers demand for more and more Uboats, inspite of the fact that prewar wargames showed the Uboat offensive would fissle out within a couple of years without surface fleet to back it up and massive LW support.
The demands for massive investment in expanding the ammunition industry , when the war began put an end to any plans for mobilization of the Heer . But Hitlers constant ADD approach to prioritizing armaments programms meant little 'economy of scale' could be brought into the armaments programmes in general so cost per weapon remained high, further limiting armament programmes.
The costs of building barraks plus training and equipping millions of men in arms , consumed the bulk of the defense budget spending for years to come.LW planning had to make do with slow production of existing designs, while the bulk of all next generation special weapons were all shelved.
This was to be replaced by a purpose designed 20 ton , 4 engined bomber at the end of that decade. This was to be either the Do-19 or the Ju-89, with a follow on bomber which became the He-177. Parallel with this was the development of a 7 ton schnell bomber capable of bombing carrying a 1000kg load 2000km at speeds of 500kph and was better than the Me-110 as a long range escort fighter....which was to be the original design for the Ju-88.
However about the time all this was to come together, Hitler redirected the war effort into an enlarged army to be ready for a limited war at the end of the decade. Hitler was convinced a total war capability was not needed. To meet the new target of over 100 land divisions plus the Westwall by the end of the 1930s, both the German navy and air force were sacrificed in the process.
The Multi engined bomber was scrapped and the Ju-88 was redesigned into a 12 ton medium slant bomber, since that was the only way Goering could keep up with Hitler's constant demands for more. The construction of all navy warships was also delayed a year in the process, while the army had to shelve their plans for more Panzer divisions and the motorization of the Heer as well, in order to meet Hitler's constant demands for more.
Once the war began the overriding logic of needs of an ongoing developing totalwar took over and much that was possible was scrapped. Reportedly 1/2 of the planned navy capital ships were scrapped along with the prewar mobilization surface fleet inorder to meet Hitlers demand for more and more Uboats, inspite of the fact that prewar wargames showed the Uboat offensive would fissle out within a couple of years without surface fleet to back it up and massive LW support.
The demands for massive investment in expanding the ammunition industry , when the war began put an end to any plans for mobilization of the Heer . But Hitlers constant ADD approach to prioritizing armaments programms meant little 'economy of scale' could be brought into the armaments programmes in general so cost per weapon remained high, further limiting armament programmes.
The costs of building barraks plus training and equipping millions of men in arms , consumed the bulk of the defense budget spending for years to come.LW planning had to make do with slow production of existing designs, while the bulk of all next generation special weapons were all shelved.
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Yes Drew was in a Mustang.
A Ju390 was supposed to have flown to within sight of New York City.
Lighthunmust
Banned
Most of us do not believe that actually happened.
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
My take on this is that however you divide the German cake up the underlying fact under all of these 'what if....' discussions is that Germany simply did not have the resources to operate a large heavy bomber force anything like that which the allies had.
Not if they are going to do the other stuff they did too.
They just do not ever have the fuel to operate them along with their fighters etc etc (they actually built a lot of He 177s many if not most of which appear to have done very little) or enought of the properly trained crews to fly them.
I suppose one might wonder what a small-ish well trained force of properly developed Do17/Ju90's might have achieved in the BoB had they been able to mount heavier attacks the UK's aircraft factories, oil refining, national transport and power production assets but the list of targets required to hit to create severe sustained dislocation, nationally, is so huge that I don't think it makes much odds either way - and it has to be remembered that the window of opportunity is small, from 1941 the UK's advantage in radar intelligence (especially Ultra) is always going to be a major 'force multiplier'.
One only has to look at how Germany did not instantly fall to pieces after so many of those enormous night day bomber raids to see it would most likely be no quick solution to anything for them.
I can imagine a heavy enough simultaneous attack on the Russian power plants (Operation Dynamo, IIRC) had it happened at an opportune time (say a few months before the Stalingrad disaster) might have led to a more desperate situation for the Russian with Stalingrad perhaps falling something like Kursk being impossible for the Russians.
But even then (political possibilities aside) I don't really see this as doing anything but dragging out the horror of the eastern front further.
I just don't see (again politics aside) any way Germany can defeat hold Russia, not if the Russians retreat into their vast interior to regroup.....at all times aided helped by the UK USA in material intel.
Mind you, I do have a history book which talks about Stalin "offering to negotiate with Hitler in Dec 1942 and again in summer 1943" which I have not seen elsewhere, but the book is by Paul Johnson and some might say he can be a little unreliable, in terms of being politically neutral.
So perhaps a forced political halt to hostilities might have been possible, if only for a time.
Not if they are going to do the other stuff they did too.
They just do not ever have the fuel to operate them along with their fighters etc etc (they actually built a lot of He 177s many if not most of which appear to have done very little) or enought of the properly trained crews to fly them.
I suppose one might wonder what a small-ish well trained force of properly developed Do17/Ju90's might have achieved in the BoB had they been able to mount heavier attacks the UK's aircraft factories, oil refining, national transport and power production assets but the list of targets required to hit to create severe sustained dislocation, nationally, is so huge that I don't think it makes much odds either way - and it has to be remembered that the window of opportunity is small, from 1941 the UK's advantage in radar intelligence (especially Ultra) is always going to be a major 'force multiplier'.
One only has to look at how Germany did not instantly fall to pieces after so many of those enormous night day bomber raids to see it would most likely be no quick solution to anything for them.
I can imagine a heavy enough simultaneous attack on the Russian power plants (Operation Dynamo, IIRC) had it happened at an opportune time (say a few months before the Stalingrad disaster) might have led to a more desperate situation for the Russian with Stalingrad perhaps falling something like Kursk being impossible for the Russians.
But even then (political possibilities aside) I don't really see this as doing anything but dragging out the horror of the eastern front further.
I just don't see (again politics aside) any way Germany can defeat hold Russia, not if the Russians retreat into their vast interior to regroup.....at all times aided helped by the UK USA in material intel.
Mind you, I do have a history book which talks about Stalin "offering to negotiate with Hitler in Dec 1942 and again in summer 1943" which I have not seen elsewhere, but the book is by Paul Johnson and some might say he can be a little unreliable, in terms of being politically neutral.
So perhaps a forced political halt to hostilities might have been possible, if only for a time.
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Readie
Chief Master Sergeant
Gixxerman;795262 Mind you said:
Gixxerman
Senior Airman
I think you're right John, it would have been incredibly cynical.
But given the looming German technical advances a years pause on the eastern front might have dragged it all out for a lot longer than it took.
I'm actually more surprised Stalin would have allowed that to happen as late as '43 but I guess nothing looked certain until much later (although Stalingrad was a huge defeat for Hitler they did have Kharkov soon after to give the Russian serious pause for thought).
