vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
The concept of Billions of Years is just mind blowing to me.
Are we alone ?
- Thread starter Geedee
- Start date
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proton45
Senior Airman
to prove it can be done? To make it clear, I'm not thinking that time machines are visiting us everyday...I just think that its a better explanation for unexplained "supernatural" machines then aliens flying to us from millions of light years away...
proton45
Senior Airman
Their is a theory about wormholes and time travel that hypothesizes that if you could create a worm hole (blackhole) NOW, and that if you could keep it stable in a lab...that someone could travel back through it from the future. That would be one explanation for time machines visiting us..."why", to prove the theory.
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trackend
Chief Master Sergeant
Just more hoaxes...we all know the Germans built the first UFOs...
Rubbish I was first with a UFO when I chucked the mother in law out of the up stairs window.
My next door neighbour yelled " What the hells that?"
Dark Matter
Banned
- 337
- Jun 23, 2009
The universe is probably trilions and trilions of lightyears big. 
There has to be something out there.
There has to be something out there.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
LMAO!!!
Daviducus2
Airman
- 46
- Jul 8, 2009
Yes we are alone. Seriously.
You all will go to your graves without the discovery of evidence establishing life anywhere outside of this planet.
Why? Given the billions of other planets out there with conditions that could possibly maintain life there is better than an excellent chance that life would have evolved elsewhere. After all, by chance life evolved here. Right? Yes but life did not arise on this planet through mere chance. It was created by a God. This ball of life in our solar system is all about an environment for very special creatures with a moral dimension.
Well, perhaps this God created life elsewhere too. How do you know this God didn't do that?
I don't. This is just my belief. You are free to believe otherwise.
You all will go to your graves without the discovery of evidence establishing life anywhere outside of this planet.
Why? Given the billions of other planets out there with conditions that could possibly maintain life there is better than an excellent chance that life would have evolved elsewhere. After all, by chance life evolved here. Right? Yes but life did not arise on this planet through mere chance. It was created by a God. This ball of life in our solar system is all about an environment for very special creatures with a moral dimension.
Well, perhaps this God created life elsewhere too. How do you know this God didn't do that?
I don't. This is just my belief. You are free to believe otherwise.
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
parsifal
Colonel
I do respect that belief, in a higher existence and our "special relationship to God..... I cannot reconcile the belief that we are a special species with a moral dimension. But that doesnt prevent or prohibit the existence of life on other planets. It does not prevent us from pursuing that "moral dimension". We do not cease to be human beings simply because life may exist on another planet. Thats like saying the teachings of the bible are destroyed by the phenonmenon of evolution. Whilst there are many who do solicit that evolution does not exist because it contradicts the word of God, most dont have too much trouble accommodating the two concepts side by side. I view evolution as a tool, used by that "higher being" to create the environment that we live in.
There is a fair chance that life exists in our own solar system, outside the earth. Look at some of the moons around Jupiter, even parts of Mars, may support primitive life forms. Am I going to question the existence of God if that happens,? Certainly not. Am I going to question our responsibility to seek the higher moral dimension, no way.....I willl be even more awestruck by the miracle of life because it exists or develops throughout the universe....
Daviducus2
Airman
- 46
- Jul 8, 2009
I cannot reconcile the belief that we are a special species with a moral dimension.
Do other animals exhibit moral behavior thus indicating a moral dimension? If we are indeed just another animal and not a special species, I suppose there is no reason other human animals should not be prohibited from regulating, controlling or exterminating people for the same reasons that other animal species are regulated, controlled or exterminated by people. After all, rights, inalienable rights, don't eminate from God under this scenario. Al rights eminate from man and what man giveth, man taketh away. Perhaps through government cloaked with the legitimacy of seeking the greater good for the species. Or the planet. Anthropogenic global warming proponents can finally seize upon the only way to regulate the human population which, frankly, is the only effective way to reduce human carbon emissions. No children, no carbon legacy that extends in ever growing numbers for potentially thousands of years. Interesting how radical left wing ideologies mesh so well with secularism.
We do not cease to be human beings simply because life may exist on another planet.
Agree. I don't think I implied anything to the contrary. You wll notice that I posited the following:
Well, perhaps this God created life elsewhere too. How do you know this God didn't do that?
I don't. This is just my belief. You are free to believe otherwise.[/B]
[I]There is a fair chance that life exists in our own solar system, outside the earth.[/I]
Yes and if I believed that life arose by "chance" then indeed it would be illogical not to conclude that many, many other planets must be teeming with life due to the operation of such chance occurrence across billions of other potentially life friendly planets. And for that matter, as I indicated in my previous post, if a God did created life here, maybe it created life elsewhere too.
I just don't believe it and for reasons that admittedly I can not prove.
A bit off topic here. The following is from a book written in the 1970's by cutting edge environmental activists and professors Paul and Ann Ehrlich (Stanford University) and John Holdren, President Obama's present Science Czar. One can see how a God free world view is an absolute prerequisite to human population engineering.
[img]http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/holdren.jpg
For more tidbits from Mr. Holdren, see:
http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/
Do other animals exhibit moral behavior thus indicating a moral dimension? If we are indeed just another animal and not a special species, I suppose there is no reason other human animals should not be prohibited from regulating, controlling or exterminating people for the same reasons that other animal species are regulated, controlled or exterminated by people. After all, rights, inalienable rights, don't eminate from God under this scenario. Al rights eminate from man and what man giveth, man taketh away. Perhaps through government cloaked with the legitimacy of seeking the greater good for the species. Or the planet. Anthropogenic global warming proponents can finally seize upon the only way to regulate the human population which, frankly, is the only effective way to reduce human carbon emissions. No children, no carbon legacy that extends in ever growing numbers for potentially thousands of years. Interesting how radical left wing ideologies mesh so well with secularism.
We do not cease to be human beings simply because life may exist on another planet.
Agree. I don't think I implied anything to the contrary. You wll notice that I posited the following:
Well, perhaps this God created life elsewhere too. How do you know this God didn't do that?
I don't. This is just my belief. You are free to believe otherwise.[/B]
[I]There is a fair chance that life exists in our own solar system, outside the earth.[/I]
Yes and if I believed that life arose by "chance" then indeed it would be illogical not to conclude that many, many other planets must be teeming with life due to the operation of such chance occurrence across billions of other potentially life friendly planets. And for that matter, as I indicated in my previous post, if a God did created life here, maybe it created life elsewhere too.
I just don't believe it and for reasons that admittedly I can not prove.
A bit off topic here. The following is from a book written in the 1970's by cutting edge environmental activists and professors Paul and Ann Ehrlich (Stanford University) and John Holdren, President Obama's present Science Czar. One can see how a God free world view is an absolute prerequisite to human population engineering.
[img]http://michellemalkin.cachefly.net/michellemalkin.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/holdren.jpg
For more tidbits from Mr. Holdren, see:
http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/
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Daviducus2
Airman
- 46
- Jul 8, 2009
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parsifal
Colonel
I dont see how the "we are the only ones with a moral dimension" argument has any sway one or the other as to the existence of life. And to be frank, I am not convinced that we are the only species with a sense of moral dimension. I do know this, we are about the only species that kills for the sport, will kill for no reason, and will kill in the name of something we have never seen and have no proof of existence.
The thing that strikes me in these sorts of discussions is that the people peddling them, be they christian, muslim, atheist, whatever, is that they always "know" that they are right, and that the moral high ground belongs to them. You know something....it doesnt. The best that we can do when it comes to questions of morals, is to arrive at some mutually acceptable set of standards and behaviours and then judge according to those standards. All those discussions about freedom of speech, human rights, the right to self determination, the rule of law, respect for others and their beliefs, and above all, tolerance are things that float into my mind when I think of morals. Amongst that general concept is the right to paractice ones religious beliefs without fear.
But none of this discussion has any place in a discussion about the possibility of alien life. We can not know if such ELFs have a sense of morals or not, heck, we cant even know if there is intelligent life out there. If we start bringing some alleged moral or religious code into the debate, then we have taken this enormous step backwards, to somewhere equivalent to the Inquisition. We should simply look at the facts, or even the potential facts, based on verifiable source material, and avoid making judgements based merely on beliefs. Basing decisions on beliefs rather than facts, or observations, reduces our cognition to the level of voodoo basically
The thing that strikes me in these sorts of discussions is that the people peddling them, be they christian, muslim, atheist, whatever, is that they always "know" that they are right, and that the moral high ground belongs to them. You know something....it doesnt. The best that we can do when it comes to questions of morals, is to arrive at some mutually acceptable set of standards and behaviours and then judge according to those standards. All those discussions about freedom of speech, human rights, the right to self determination, the rule of law, respect for others and their beliefs, and above all, tolerance are things that float into my mind when I think of morals. Amongst that general concept is the right to paractice ones religious beliefs without fear.
But none of this discussion has any place in a discussion about the possibility of alien life. We can not know if such ELFs have a sense of morals or not, heck, we cant even know if there is intelligent life out there. If we start bringing some alleged moral or religious code into the debate, then we have taken this enormous step backwards, to somewhere equivalent to the Inquisition. We should simply look at the facts, or even the potential facts, based on verifiable source material, and avoid making judgements based merely on beliefs. Basing decisions on beliefs rather than facts, or observations, reduces our cognition to the level of voodoo basically
Colin1
Senior Master Sergeant
You suppose? You don't think there is something fundamentally atrocious about that statement?
Yeah well, God doesn't live on Earth, we do. I'm sure he's going to come along and divinely intervene at some stage but right now, I don't see him stepping up and dealing with nuclear proliferation, terrorism or disease. While we're waiting for him to turn up someone needs to run the show on behalf of the free world. Much as we'd like everyone to enjoy the inalienable rights we take for granted, there are some out there who have a vested interest in not letting it spread to their neighbourhood.
So yes, man giveth and man taketh away - we're trying to give everyone our degree of liberty and quality of life, others are trying to take it away, it's not perfect. What do you suggest we do?
Oh
a program for sterilising women?
sterilants in the general water supply?
and the potentially catastrophic-for-the-species consequences of that if it goes wrong? Even if it worked, it's not the kind of society I want to live in. We can only solve our social problems through social enlightenment, not justifiable extermination and castration.
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Maestro
Master Sergeant
For once I agree with you Parsifal...
Anyway... I watched UFO Hunters the other day, and even though I think that some of them may be some kind of weirdos, I must say that they found a few interresting facts. Just like that episode where soldiers of a RAF base in England in the middle of the Cold War (equipped with Nukes, so with very high security) repported spotting strange lights in the neighborhood, one of them even passed right over their heads. The base's security even chased a red-ish light in the nearby woods.
I mean, you would have to watch the said show yourself to get all the info, but it was clear that those lights couldn't have been any kind of "human-made" aircraft.
And the "UFOs" would have been spotted by inhabitants of the nearby town, soldiers of the RAF base and even the commanding officer of the base.
So are we alone ? I don't think so.
Anyway... I watched UFO Hunters the other day, and even though I think that some of them may be some kind of weirdos, I must say that they found a few interresting facts. Just like that episode where soldiers of a RAF base in England in the middle of the Cold War (equipped with Nukes, so with very high security) repported spotting strange lights in the neighborhood, one of them even passed right over their heads. The base's security even chased a red-ish light in the nearby woods.
I mean, you would have to watch the said show yourself to get all the info, but it was clear that those lights couldn't have been any kind of "human-made" aircraft.
And the "UFOs" would have been spotted by inhabitants of the nearby town, soldiers of the RAF base and even the commanding officer of the base.
So are we alone ? I don't think so.
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Maestro
Master Sergeant
And would you please leave your friggin God alone ? We're talking aliens/UFOs here, not religion !
proton45
Senior Airman
I know this aint really the thread topic here...but, wow. I got to agree with you, their is really something disturbing about that notion. Its like saying, "the only reason to be good is that God is watching..." I guess that (under this line of thinking) an atheist who demonstrates "moral" behavior without a sense of "Godly bestowed entitlement" has a stronger sense of compassion(?).
I don't even know what to think about the "Left wing conspiracy" , female sterilization stuff... "IF" they are organized in any fashion, they are such a small, small group... I actually find the notion that "Anthropogenic global warming proponents" are waiting to "cease the moment" (to force female sterilization) incredibly misguided and paranoid. The current trend in the movement is "self accountability"... its based on reducing "ones own" carbon footprint (as it is). If "someone" wanted to characterize the "ugly" side of the movement, it should be the "I'm a better person (then you), because I do more (sacrifice more) to save the planet...".
Anyway...beam me up Scotty, no intelligent life here.
(rant over)
evangilder
"Shooter"
I have seen too many unexplainable things to believe that we are alone in the universe. Not just sighted, but seen on RADAR and caught with other instrumentation at insane speeds and with maneuvering that would kill any human being with the technology that we humans know right now. Do I have any photos, video or hard evidence? No, but I do know what I saw, and I was not alone seeing it in 99% of the instances.
That being said, there are some things that are strange, but not alien, or extraterrestrial. Many years ago, I was working on some radio gear in a remote Nevada location that had many, many reports of 'triangular shaped black UFOs'. Those UFOs were later presented to the public as the F-117 Nighthawk. Being a skeptic myself, my first impression of the F-117 was "What the hell is that?" not "What planet did that come from?". Of course, knowing where I was, I figured it was a test of some new wonder toy out of ARPA. The deserts are full of those.
That being said, there are some things that are strange, but not alien, or extraterrestrial. Many years ago, I was working on some radio gear in a remote Nevada location that had many, many reports of 'triangular shaped black UFOs'. Those UFOs were later presented to the public as the F-117 Nighthawk. Being a skeptic myself, my first impression of the F-117 was "What the hell is that?" not "What planet did that come from?". Of course, knowing where I was, I figured it was a test of some new wonder toy out of ARPA. The deserts are full of those.
Butters
Senior Airman
Davidicus 2 sez: "One can see how a God free world view is an absolute prerequisite to human population engineering."
What a joke. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of the eugenics movement in 20th century America? Or the thousands of 'social undesirables' who were forcibly and LEGALLY sterilized in conformance with legislation passed by the overwhelmingly self-professed Christian state representatives of a large number of states? Better check the beam in your own eye, D2. No one group, theistic or otherwise, has the patent on oppression. Nor are any exempt.
Anyway, enough of that. This is supposed to be about the probabilty of extraterrestrial life in the universe, not partisan ideology/theology...
The mechanics of star formation and the stellar creation of heavy elements necessary for life mean that any universe possessing complex life will necessarily be old, cold, dark, and vast. Like ours. The evidence that life originated fairly early in our planet's 4.5 billion year old history plausibly suggests that organic life may be fairly common throughout the universe. However, the fact that in the 3.5 billion year history of life, only one species capable of pondering such matters as this has evolved, also suggests that intelligent,self-aware, and technologically adept life may be an extreme rarity. Furthermore, there is there is no compelling empirical evidence that life has a teleological imperative towards complexity, much less self-aware beings, like ourselves. That being the case, it is just as likely that we are alone in the universe, as not. You cannot make valid probablistic extropolations from one datum point. The Drake equation mentioned earlier in this thread (not by name, tho) is not a scientifically valid hypothesis by the accepted standards - it is merely a series of unverified assumptions piled one atop the other. Sort'a like a pile of steamin' cow patties. And with much the same reek...
The vast distances between the stars, and the physical constraints on possible velocities imposed by GR, make the claim of interstellar visitations an extraordinary claim by any standard. As there is no verifiable material evidence whatsover of either aliens or their purported craft, the inference that an unusual airborne phenomena is necessarily evidence of aliens, is unwarranted. It is sheer conjecture, nothing more. Just because we cannot explain a UFO, does not a priori mean that little green men are among us. Or anywhere...
JL
What a joke. Do you have any knowledge whatsoever of the eugenics movement in 20th century America? Or the thousands of 'social undesirables' who were forcibly and LEGALLY sterilized in conformance with legislation passed by the overwhelmingly self-professed Christian state representatives of a large number of states? Better check the beam in your own eye, D2. No one group, theistic or otherwise, has the patent on oppression. Nor are any exempt.
Anyway, enough of that. This is supposed to be about the probabilty of extraterrestrial life in the universe, not partisan ideology/theology...
The mechanics of star formation and the stellar creation of heavy elements necessary for life mean that any universe possessing complex life will necessarily be old, cold, dark, and vast. Like ours. The evidence that life originated fairly early in our planet's 4.5 billion year old history plausibly suggests that organic life may be fairly common throughout the universe. However, the fact that in the 3.5 billion year history of life, only one species capable of pondering such matters as this has evolved, also suggests that intelligent,self-aware, and technologically adept life may be an extreme rarity. Furthermore, there is there is no compelling empirical evidence that life has a teleological imperative towards complexity, much less self-aware beings, like ourselves. That being the case, it is just as likely that we are alone in the universe, as not. You cannot make valid probablistic extropolations from one datum point. The Drake equation mentioned earlier in this thread (not by name, tho) is not a scientifically valid hypothesis by the accepted standards - it is merely a series of unverified assumptions piled one atop the other. Sort'a like a pile of steamin' cow patties. And with much the same reek...
The vast distances between the stars, and the physical constraints on possible velocities imposed by GR, make the claim of interstellar visitations an extraordinary claim by any standard. As there is no verifiable material evidence whatsover of either aliens or their purported craft, the inference that an unusual airborne phenomena is necessarily evidence of aliens, is unwarranted. It is sheer conjecture, nothing more. Just because we cannot explain a UFO, does not a priori mean that little green men are among us. Or anywhere...
JL
