Coronavirus Thread

[Dash119]

because viruses are 80 nm wide. Not many cloths, even layered ones will block that. Not if you still want to breathe, that is.

Marcel,

So none of the virus will get caught in the cloth fibers of the mask? One Hundred percent of viruses will pass through the gaps between the cloth fibers...
Maybe that is true, but it seems unlikely to this layman. Is there some proof that is the case?

If not, isn't blocking any percentage of the virus from becoming airborne better than nothing at all? In this case, I know my sister the nurse would say anything is better than nothing.

Respectfully,

Kim

 

[Marcel]

Dash119 I removed that post as it was an insufficient answer, sorry.

Can I ask which part of the following isn't clear :-

a) You can have the virus and be contagious without showing any symptoms
b) The virus is transmitted primarily via droplets in the air. People argue about how far, but no one argues that it isn't airborne
c) Wearing a mask whether or not you have symptoms (see 'a' above), massively reduces the amount of contaminated droplets in the air
d) As a result contamination is significantly reduced, reducing the spread

Re your comment 'In the mean time you are breathing your own exhaust gasses.'
If you have the virus it doesn't matter if you are breathing your own gasses, because you already have the virus. However if you have the virus, then wearing a mask significantly reduces the chances of you spreading the virus to others.

Remember the UK numbers are massively down from the peak and if you have a better reason for this fall then I would like to hear it, because it wasn't luck.

Okay, against better judgement I'll answer this one as it was the post I reacted upon:

a) There are indications that this seems to be the case indeed. But it still seems rare. edit People seem to hang up on this argument. But it's not important. I'm merely addressing the points made in the quoted post but it does not have a whole lot to do with the effectiveness of masks. I should have omitted this here, but now I leave it as otherwise later posts here would be out of context.
b) although it seems counter intuitive, it's not yet been scientifically proven that droplets play a significant role in spreading, also the role of aerosols are not totally clear. That it's airborne is clear, but the mechanisms doesn't seem as simple as people like to perceive.
c) here again, scientific proof is very thin. There are as many studies proving that there is as much or more virus particles outside of the mask than inside. Coughing makes turbulence, the insufficient amateur masks we wear will let the turbulent air out through both the sides and through the pores it has itself. Unlike what everybody believes, you are usually not infected by the direct blast, but by virus particles flowing in the air, hence a good ventilation system is way more effective than any mask will be. Even the distancing is questionable, although hugging an infected person will not be a good idea of course. We see dentists having on average a higher degree of resistance against upper-respiratory pathogens, even while wearing masks, which indicates that the mask does not prevent infection by said pathogens.
d) Except for, for instance Spain. They made wearing masks compulsory when they were hit hard in the first wave. So everybody wears them, but still the second wave is raging through the country. Masks don't seem to significantly slow down the pandemic in any way. In the Netherlands we did not have the rule to wear masks and the proceedings of the pandemic followed roughly the same pattern as that of the more strict countries. Research institutes like IZA in Germany have confirmed this, the introduction of masks did not significantly effect the spreading of the viruses.

But lets talk about the down sides of wearing a mask:
a) When you breathe in, air will flow in from the side, carrying virus particles. The mask creates an enclosed environment in which the virus concentration will be higher than outside the mask (remember ventilation?). The chances are that you're even more likely to contract an infection than without a mask. Admittedly this is not proven, but neither is the positive influence of masks, it shows you how unfounded all claims are.
b) Breathing through a mask over a longer time takes more energy. This energy is lost for other metabolic processes like the immune system.
c) Cheap masks, like bought from China contain plastics and microfibers, which can damage the mucociliary and lun epithelium, which will enhance the vulnerability for pathogens. Apart from that they can contain particles enhancing the risk of cancer in the long run.
d) Even the WHO says, by breathing through a mouth mask of any quality, the O2 content of the air you breath is lowered. risking fainting or other problems. This especially if you do any exertion
e) above makes already vulnerable people even more vulnerable when wearing masks.
f) the high mask consumption results in an upsurge of plastic waste with all the environmental problems associated with it


I know I'm going against the common consensus that the internet seems to have. I also know that none of this will convince you. If it's any worth, I'm a trained microbiologist with 15 years of practice under his belt. Doesn't make me an expert, though. You guys can shoot at me now if you want.

 

[stona]

Your point A is absolutely proven.
In England (and probably the rest of the UK) Public Health England has been carrying out voluntary random testing in hot spots and adjacent areas. In my region the level of testing has increased by 25% in the last two weeks. I had a chat with them when they dropped of our test kits and they reckoned that at least one in three households was agreeing to do the test.
People here do this 'for the greater good', in the same way that they wear masks. I know that 'the greater good' is something of an alien concept to many Americans, particularly if they can spin it to somehow infringe on some concept of 'natural' rights.
At least 20% of people tested in the UK are asymptomatic and some studies suggest that this figure may be much higher. This should not be a surprise, it has been known from the early stages of the pandemic, with Chinese studies of medical workers and their families in Wuhan, and has now been confirmed innumerable times ( by studies in Italy, Spain, France, Australia, Singapore, S Korea, etc,. etc.)

The issue in the UK is not about masks, it is the politically rather than medically driven lockdowns. There is a difference between a logical response and a rational response. If a boy has his head trapped in railings it might be a logical response to free him by cutting off his head, but that would not be rational. A rational response would be to grease his head, or spread the railings. At the moment we are cutting off heads.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

40% of Covid cases are asymptomatic. How is that rare?

 

[Marcel]

40% of Covid cases are asymptomatic. How is that rare?

The fact that they are infecting other people is rare. Infectious means "able to infect others"

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The fact that they are infecting other people is rare. Infectious means "able to infect others"

I understand what infectious means. No need to belittle...

 

[Marcel]

I understand what infectious means. No need to belittle...

Sorry Chris when I read your post I assumed otherwise. Not trying to belittle, just trying to communicate clearly. The problem here is that I directly get 2 answers about asymptomatic infected people while I assume that point a is about infectious people.

 

[Vincenzo]

Marcel said:


because viruses are 80 nm wide. Not many cloths, even layered ones will block that. Not if you still want to breathe, that is.

sory for this not standard citation

but the mask don't need to stop the 80 nm viruses but the droplets where the virus are in, and the droplets are much larger

 

[Marcel]

Marcel said:


because viruses are 80 nm wide. Not many cloths, even layered ones will block that. Not if you still want to breathe, that is.

sory for this not standard citation

but the mask don't need to stop the 80 nm viruses but the droplets where the virus are in, and the droplets are much larger

Apart from the fact that the role of droplets and aerosols are not really understood, I believe I withdrew that statement and made a better explanation in a later post. I see people making theories about this all the time although they have no scientific foundation. The infamous cartoon about peeing in your pants that circulates on FaceBook is an illustration of this. I can try to explain what the difference is, but I'm afraid that people will take it out of context as happened before in this thread.

Final word: to see the effectiveness of masks in the whole scheme of things, one only has to look at Belgium and the Netherlands. Demographically very similar countries with a totally different approach. Belgium forcing everybody to wear masks everywhere in public for months, the Netherland more lenient. Still we are both affected by the second wave in similar fashion. They follow the same curve as we do.

 

[bentwings]

I'm not sure exactly what to make of it. By some metrics it looks like nothing anymore worrisome than a bad flu and by others quite bad.
I think the potential bad case scenario involves sheer numbers. While the fatality rate is no more spectacular than a bad flu it is about 3 or 4 times more contagious.
Whether this turns out to be just another" bad flu year" kinda thing or something really ugly because 2% of say 30% of the worlds population is alot of people, will depend on how much of a foothold it gets.
Looks to me like it has the potential to be either no big deal or the Spanish Flu act 2.
Lets just hope its the former.

Ok, now what effect will the fly on V.P. Pense's head cause? It was there over two minutes so could have spread or contacted a good many people and animals.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Ok, now what effect will the fly on V.P. Pense's head cause? It was there over two minutes so could have spread or contacted a good many people and animals.

 

[Vincenzo]

an other point on the masks
if this are not goof for stop the virus, as they can stop the gases? the CO2 is much smaller.

I've a question for the US friends, somewhere i read that sometime some sheriff or other police authority declared that they not would not enforce the compulsory mask order, as they can do this declaration? They are not committing a crime, disobey a order?

 

[tyrodtom]

Final word: to see the effectiveness of masks in the whole scheme of things, one only has to look at Belgium and the Netherlands. Demographically very similar countries with a totally different approach. Belgium forcing everybody to wear masks everywhere in public for months, the Netherland more lenient. Still we are both affected by the second wave in similar fashion. They follow the same curve as we do.

What was the compliance rate in Belgium ?
what % of the people wore mask in the Netherlands, even though it wasn't mandated ?
Without having any idea of what those statistics might be, your final word doesn't mean much.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

I've a question for the US friends, somewhere i read that sometime some sheriff or other police authority declared that they not would not enforce the compulsory mask order, as they can do this declaration? They are not committing a crime, disobey a order?

The US has a governmental structure unique to this planet.
Primary authority rests with the people, not the king, the Parliament, or the government by any name.
Some authority was delegated by the people to their States, other authority to the United States. The people retain to themselves all the rest.
That was 1787.
Fast Forward 200+ years, and you see a never-ending crusade to reduce the people from "the Sovereign" to "mere citizens"; while those in authority promote "The Majesty Of Government".

Effect: Whenever a "good idea" comes to the mind of one "In Authority", the impulse is to impose it as a command enforced by armed and armored police.
That's what got our original revolution started.
So it's important to us (culturally as well as legally) to couch good ideas as "good ideas" with study results backing up the goodness of "the good" idea, rather than issuing commands and edicts, and leave us (The People) to manifest our wisdom (or lack thereof).

Another monster in this soup is the number of "good ideas" that aren't, but are backed up by studies that are made (and paid) to produce conclusions that are suppportive of the "good idea". THIS engenders distrust of Authority, Science, and "good ideas".

Then the polarity of the political environment here manifests: if God Almighty revealed to Trump (or Biden) how to stop the Wuhan Flu dead in its tracks, half of the country would reject the solution because of its source, without regard to its effectiveness. This manifests in State/City responses to Trump's suggestions, be they good or bad. SO (e.g.) Maskless rioters go unpunished and uncriticized, but churches and synagogues are shut down.

The Magnitude of The Universe, and Human Stupidity ... so far the Universe looks like it is at best in second place.

 

[rochie]

in an attempt to lighten the mood i have been issued new protective equipment at work !

 

[Vincenzo]

The US has a governmental structure unique to this planet.
Primary authority rests with the people, not the king, the Parliament, or the government by any name.
Some authority was delegated by the people to their States, other authority to the United States. The people retain to themselves all the rest.
That was 1787.
Fast Forward 200+ years, and you see a never-ending crusade to reduce the people from "the Sovereign" to "mere citizens"; while those in authority promote "The Majesty Of Government".

Effect: Whenever a "good idea" comes to the mind of one "In Authority", the impulse is to impose it as a command enforced by armed and armored police.
That's what got our original revolution started.
So it's important to us (culturally as well as legally) to couch good ideas as "good ideas" with study results backing up the goodness of "the good" idea, rather than issuing commands and edicts, and leave us (The People) to manifest our wisdom (or lack thereof).

Another monster in this soup is the number of "good ideas" that aren't, but are backed up by studies that are made (and paid) to produce conclusions that are suppportive of the "good idea". THIS engenders distrust of Authority, Science, and "good ideas".

Then the polarity of the political environment here manifests: if God Almighty revealed to Trump (or Biden) how to stop the Wuhan Flu dead in its tracks, half of the country would reject the solution because of its source, without regard to its effectiveness. This manifests in State/City responses to Trump's suggestions, be they good or bad. SO (e.g.) Maskless rioters go unpunished and uncriticized, but churches and synagogues are shut down.

The Magnitude of The Universe, and Human Stupidity ... so far the Universe looks like it is at best in second place.

I'm not sure of understand you, also in the italian constitution is write that "sovereignty belongs to the people" but i don see the connection with my question, if you are a military or a policeman you get orders and if this are legal you must obey or you commit the disobey crime, people has the right to demonstrate versus the mask mandatory order but this a different thing

 

[TheMadPenguin]

I'm not sure if I understand you, also in the Italian constitution is written that "sovereignty belongs to the people" but I don't see the connection with my question, if you are a military or a policeman you get orders and if this are legal you must obey or you commit the disobey crime, people has the right to demonstrate versus the mask mandatory order but this a different thing

The question asked here (and perhaps other places too) Does the Government have authority from the people to issue this order? If not, the Authority has issued an illegal order, and the Police are bound NOT to enforce it. what the Police DO, varies from place to place and from order to order.

 

[Vincenzo]

The question asked here (and perhaps other places too) Does the Government have authority from the people to issue this order? If not, the Authority has issued an illegal order, and the Police are bound NOT to enforce it. what the Police DO, varies from place to place and from order to order.

The question is that, the order is legal or not, but in this case the policeman would go to denounce to tribunal not go in tv to tell i don't enforce the order.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

The question is that, the order is legal or not, but in this case the policeman would go to denounce to tribunal not go in tv to tell i don't enforce the order.

If the Court can be trusted to act quickly and correctly (which is not certain); but it is faster (and perhaps sufficient) to tell the Executive "No, we're not doing this" by a public message, with which the public can pressure the executive, giving the executive immediate feedback to guide revision(s) to order(s). ALSO, party/partisan politics features in both the order and the rejection of the order. Welcome to America.

 

[Vincenzo]

Just as info, in Italy if a order is illegal you still must obey, you can required the order in the write form, if the order is criminal you can disobey, this was for military (in Italy around half of police force is military) i think this is true also for civilian police


p.s. Italy again reported more of 5 thousands new cases today