Custer and the Little Big Horn

[renrich]

bikill, nice analysis. Custer was rash, over confident and did not use good judgment. Other than that, he was a good commander, LOL For his men's sake, it is too bad that some Johnny Reb did not remove him during the War of Nothern Aggression.

 

[GrauGeist]

Custer's arrogance was his downfall. He acted on a number of flawed assumptions, and his Civil War experiences should have served him better in the Sioux Wars, but his way of thinking was that the Indians were just a bunch of savages and could be beaten easily...

Crazy Horse and Gall worked out a sharp plan of battle that involved concerted foot and horse troops that kept Custer off balance. Even if Custer had Gattling guns with him, he would have needed time to deploy them once engaged, and that may or may not have been possible, given the ferocity of the battle.

 

[B-17engineer]

like bikill said Custer didn't wait to get numbers. He took his estimate that there were only 1500 Natives and in reality it was 8,000. 3,000 of which were warriors.

 

[imalko]

But there were actually "only" 1500 warriors and unidentified number on non combatants. Custer estimated he will be facing more then 1000 warriors. His main mistake was not so much in underestimating the number of hostiles but in misjudging their attitude and willingness to fight...

Edit: Had he anticipated that Indians would stay and fight and not run, I seriously doubt he would separate his forces the way he did. Depending on this one assumption the battle may took completely different direction. But his experience was working against him this time (that coupled with no knowledge of Crook's engagement). According to what I've read about Indian wars its my impression that they always scattered and evaded direct and large scale confrontation with the cavalry.

 

[Amsel]

Great first post Bikll.


Imalko, I hope that one day you get to come visit Montana, and see the country for yourself. It is magnificant and you would really enjoy it.

 

[imalko]

Hope to do so one day Amsel. There's several places and historical sites in Europe and North America I would like to visit one day, Montana and the Little Big Horn battlefield being one of them.

 

[RabidAlien]

Dunno how accurate these are, but I ran across them today while surfing:


ETA: dangit. Something's up, I can't attach a PDF. I'm really hating this version of Firefox...

 

[RabidAlien]

Ahhh....finally.

 

[claidemore]

Some thoughts about the LBH fight.
We can't forget that Reno was wounded. The death of Bloody Knife is often speculated as causing Reno to exhibit poor judgement, but the head wound he recieved would seem to be the more likely cause. If you look at a battle map, Renos 'retreat' was over a longer distance than Custers, over tougher terrain (woods, river, steep bluff). His withdrawal was poorly executed, but it was ultimately successful.

Benteen is criticized because he didn't come to Custers aid 'quick' enough. Martini was sent with the 'orders' for Benteen at approx 3:20. In the movies Marintini is shown galloping his horse away,(which he maybe did for a minute or so) but given that he had to go about 5 miles to find Benteen, he would have been riding primarily at a fast trot, over broken country. So 8-10 miles per hour, or at least 20 minutes before he gets to Benteen. Benteen arrived to reinforce Reno at approx 4:20...and he arrived independantly of McDougall who was in charge of the packs. That means Benteen coverd a minimum of 4 miles in 40 minutes, or about 6 mph, which is a slow trot, a resonable speed to move 3 companies of cavalry on tired horses.

Note: Custer would have been engaged by the Sioux a little before Martini handed his orders to Benteen, and Benteen would have been about 6 miles from Custers position at that time.

At a little after 5:00 pm Weir and Benteen advance to Weirs Point, arriving there approxim 5:20 (one hour after reinforcing Reno). Too late, Sioux and Cheyenne are already leaving Last Stand Hill (2 miles from Weirs Point) and advancing towards them. This action was IMO merely posturing.

Custers retreat after initial contact at Medicine Tail Coulee, was away from Reno and Benteen, with Last Stand Hill being about 3 miles from Renos Hill. If Benteen had advanced at a canter (unlikely on tired horses) towards Custer as soon as he arrived at Renos Hill, it would have taken 10-15 minutes to reach LSHill. There is a possibility that a few of Custers command might have still been alive at that time, but then Benteen would have been in the same situation as Custer, with fewer men. Some of them might have made it back to Renos position, Benteen would have been a hero for 'rescuing' Custer (or whoever was still alive), but he would have lost a big part of his command.

Benteens actions on that day while not heroic, were certainly practical.

Splitting the command, and underestimating enemy numbers and desire to fight are definately a big part of what caused Custers defeat, but the distances involved and the time to cover those distances given the physical limitations of horses, were huge factors.

 

[renrich]

Nice well spoken info Claidemore. I read a book which laid it out pretty much as you did. The fact is that horses are better than men's legs for covering ground by not by as much as might be expected and they take a lot on maintenance.

 

[claidemore]

Since posting on this thread a couple weeks ago I've been doing some reading and research.
-According to Lt Godfrey, Benteen was watering their horses when the first messanger from Custer, Sgt. Kanipe, arrived with orders for Cpt. McDougall with the pack train. Martini arrived later with the written note from Lt. Cooke. So the criticism that Benteen took time to water his horses after he got orders from Custer to 'come quick', does not hold water.
-Godfrey mentions that when he and Benteen arrived at Renos Hill, they were still under attack by hostiles. It was only after those hostiles left that Weir decided to reconoiter towards Custers presumed position. Weir did not disobey orders from Reno and Benteen to 'not take his company towards the sound of firing', his 2nd in command mistook Weirs recon movements and followed him with their company.
-Different writers word their account of Benteen and Reno following Weir to make it look like they did so reluctantly because they were either timid or did not want to support Custer for personal reasons. It is far more likely that they moved from Renos Hill to support Weir. Godfreys testimony indicates that Weirs men were being threatened by native forces already, the other companies were moved to support them, and in fact were engaged as they retreated back to Renos original position.
-At Weirs point they saw groups of natives on horseback, either moving or sitting still. They saw some warriors firing into the ground, but also heard firing further in the distance. This would have been the last 40 or so men who made a rush for the river and the protection of the brush. They assumed at this point that Custer had been repulsed (as Reno had been) and was retreating. It never entered their thinking that his force would have been annihilated, particularly since Reno with about half as many men, had (more or less) retreated successfully. Consequently, they did not rush to 'rescue' him.
-There is a very strong likelihood that Custer was hit when E Company tried to cross the river into the village. The Sioux warrior White Cow Bull stated that he hit one trooper and one officer on a sorrel horse with four white socks. Yates and the rest of E Company rode grey horses, Custer rode a sorrel with four white socks. Having made my living riding horses for 28 years, I know that horses with four white feet are not favored. Their feet are soft and don't hold shoes well, and are susceptable to stone bruises. They also have a reputation for untrustworthyness (I can personally attest to that!). A well known quote goes like this..." One or two white feet buy him, three white feet try him, four white feet deny him!"
A 'chromed up' horse like Custer rode would be unusual and stand out from the crowd.
-Various reports of Custers wounds list the chest wound as either below or above the heart and 'instantly fatal'. I'm not so sure that a lung wound would be instantly fatal, and even if it were, his body would not be abandoned. Most of his closest friends and relatives were found near him on Last Stand Hill, and historians have always wondered why they were there instead of with their companies. The loss of their commander would explain the loss of cohesion and direction of parts of his command and the shift from offence to defence.
-Reno lost over 1/3 of his command (missing, wounded or dead) before reaching Renos Hill. Military strategists consider a force to have lost it's fighitng ability at much lower loss rates than that. They would not have been able to even protect the pack train if the rest of the force had left them and gone to find Custer. They were basically a stone around the neck of Benteens battallion.

Too many people (including myself most of the time!) look for what was done wrong, who was to blame, what should have been done differently, instead of looking at what was done right and what could not have been done differently due to the circumstances and resources at hand.

 

[claidemore]

I'd like to answer the original question in this thread, pertaining to whether or not Benteen let Custer down by directly disobeying orders.

For Benteen to disobey the written order delivered by Martini, we have to make an assumption about what Custer meant by the order. We have to assume that Custer wanted Benteen to come to him, and I believe that is an erroneous assumption that we base on hindsight, knowing as we do that Custer eventually needed help.

Custers last verbal orders to Reno were that he would support Renos attack with the entire regiment. This was one of the first things Reno told Benteen when Benteen joined him on Renos Hill.

Custer already knew that Reno's "charge" had faltered, and that Reno had deployed in a skirmish line. It's possible he knew Reno had retreated into the trees as well, though we have no testimony about that.

Custer was quite aware that Renos positon was between him and Benteen. He also knew that Benteen never backed down from a fight, so when Benteen saw or heard Reno fighting, he would advance towards him. Benteen did this, at the trot, with pistols drawn, (according to Godfrey) until he saw that Reno had retreated onto the bluffs.


IMO Custer intended for Benteen to support Reno, which is what Benteen did.


In reading through this thread, I noticed several comments that the native forces had broke off their attack on Reno before or at the same time that Benteen arrived on Renos hill. This is not true. Benteens 3 companies dismounted and deployed alongisde Renos men to fight off attackers immediately. As some of the warriors began to break off to go fight Custer, Reno tried to go recover Hodgsons body, but could not because there was still heavy fire from the Indians.

A brief comment on speculation that Custer should have replaced Reno and Benteen with other more 'trusted' officers: Reno and Benteen were the senior officers, both had excellent combat records, particularly Benteen. In light of the fact that both men managed to preserve their commands against 1500 to 2000 warriors tells me that confidence in them was justified.
Besides, it wasn't Custers call, Sturgis was the actual commander of the 7th.

 

[renrich]

Nice posts Claidemore, enjoyed them and they pretty well jibe with what I have gleaned from late books. IMO Reno thought that Custer would support him as promised but Custer in his haste and hubris failed to do what he said he would do. I would like to go to the battlefield to actually see the ground.

 

[al49]

Not a real participation on the debate, but just my view on some people involved in the fight between two very different worlds.

Yes, before I restarted with plastic aeroplanes, I spent some years assembling and painting figurines, mostly in white metal and mostly in the 90 mm size.
I did many more subjects, mainly Napoleonic; if someone is interested I can find the right thread to post them.
Cheers
Alberto

 

[RabidAlien]

Excellent work there, Alberto!

 

[claidemore]

I've read several more books on the subject of Custer and the Little Big Horn in the past couple months and gleaned some useful and interesting information.

Forensic archeologists have identified 69 different Springfield carbines used by Custers immediate command. He had approximately 200 men with him so this represents a 34% sampling. 34% because every inch of the battlefield has not been surveyed (it was done on a grid) and artifacts have been lost to trinket hunters and some artifacts are in museum possession and have not been examined forensically.

If we used the same ratio to try to determine how the native forces were armed, we get some interesting numbers. 108 .44 Rim Fire Winchesterr66/Henry rifles have been identified. Add another 66% to that number and there could very well have been upwards of 320 Win66/Henrys present.

Using the same formula, the Sioux/Cheyenne should also have 100+ Sharps rifles of various calibers (mostly .50-70). There were 40+ other weapons of various makes and calibers in lesser numbers(including 20+ of the newest Winchester 1873's), but even without considering those weapons, Custers 200 men were operating under a 2-1 defficiency, Win66/Henry/Sharps versus Springfield carbine.
Custer was outgunned, both in firepower(win66/Henry), and in range (Sharps/Remington/Ballard).

Custer knew very well that he would be opposing well armed warriors. His criticism of the Indian Dept is well documented and he stated that often the Indians were better armed, and carried more ammunition than US soldiers. The Indian dept was convinced that the 'savages' did not stockpile ammunition, so they issued a steady stream of it for 'hunting'. Yet another example of arrogantly assuming that a primitive culture is a stupid one.

There was some significant command and control and use of tactics exhibited on the native side, particularly from Gall and Crazy Horse. Gall actually held warriors back from rushing Renos skirmish line in the valley, telling them to "wait till we have more guns." Once sufficient numbers were present they flanked Reno and forced him into the trees. Reno actually had a very strong position in the trees, there was an old river channel that his men took position in, basically a 'trench'. Gall (or one of the other leaders) instructed the wariors to open up a retreat route for Reno because they were having a hard time getting at the soldiers. Reno took the bait, retreated and suffered most of his losses during that retreat.

Crazy Horse initiated movement of warriors that divided Custers forces, preventing them from reinforcing one another and causing them to be overwhelmed in three separate stages. According to native accounts, the majority of casualties from their side was younger warriors who rushed the soldier positions while they were still in unit cohesion. More experiencee warriors fired from cover until they achieved fire supriority, then when the soldiers retreated they rushed them. Pretty standard infantry tactic.
Outgunned and outgeneralled.

 

[renrich]

Claidemore, you have done some interesting research. Do you think that some of the Indians could have been armed only with bows and arrows or muzzleloaders? I notice you have not mentioned pistols. I believe each soldier had a 1873 Colt and several reloads. Those would have been pretty effective at close range, 50 yards or so.

 

[Night Fighter Nut]

I've actually been to little big horn. Very grassy and lots of rolling hills.

 

[claidemore]

Hi renrich, yeah every cavalryman and each scout had a .45 Colt revolver and 24 rnds of ammunition. Archeologist found evidence of 12 different .45 Colts used by the soldiers at Custers location, which using the 33% sampling ratio would indicate about 36 of his men used their revolvers at some point. Artwork done by native participants show pistols in use.

There were also numerous other handguns in use, S&W Americans, Colt cartridge conversions and 1872 Open Tops and percussion pistols. Custer himself gives testimony that the Indian Dept contractors who were supposed to supply guns to the natives for 'hunting' were buying Civil war surplus revovers for pennies on the dollar, with a sprinkling of new percussion rifles, and issuing these weapons to the Cheyenne and Kiowas. We don't often picture native warriors as carrying pistols, but they were in common use and there are accounts by some Sioux participants who had only a pistol, or a pistol and bow.

The Arikari and Crow scouts had .45 Colts (mentioned above) but it seems their longarms were .50-70 springfield "3-band" muskets. Not the handiest thing on horseback. The Arikari scouts had some losses during Renos fight, but several of them actually came out of it with a bunch of captured Sioux horses. Two Crow scouts who were lagging well behind Custers group actually went to the river bluffs and fired down into the village, possibly alerting the village to the presence of enemy forces on the bluffs.

Bows and arrows were estimated by officers at the Reno/Benteen end of the battle as being carried by about half the warriors. There was one point in the Custer fight where arcing volley fire from arrows was used from the cover of a coulee against a cavalry position. Probably not accurate fire but definately discouraging on the receiving end. Plains indian bows run the gamut from 20 lb pull weight to 50/60 lb pull weights so their effectiveness was pretty varied. It was customary to fire arrows into the bodies of slain enemies, and this was done to Custers men. I have made my own arrows, both modern type and plains indian type arrows, and it's a lot of work. They must have had a very strong belief that enemies had to have arrows in them to prevent them from fighting again in the afterlife to 'waste' an arrow in that manner.

There is evidence of muzzleloaders, but they seem to have been largely replaced by more modern firearms. There is limited evidence of Spencer rifles as well, they also having been replaced by Winchesters and Sharps/Remingtons. It seems that after 10 years of fighting the Indians had managed to arm themselves pretty well, which if we look at the weapons used by guerrilla and terrorist forces now, should be no surprise.