Crimea_River
Marshal
Wish you well Terry.
RCAF CF-104 'Starfighter', 1/48th scale.
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- Thread starter
- #142
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks Cory and Andy.
I got the gloss clear coat on the wings, using Johnsons' 'Klear' (Future), applied with a brush, but it's bl**dy awful !
It's that same bottle I had problems with when mixing with Tamiya Flat Base, to make a matt clear coat for the P-47, but it hasn't shown any major problems when used as a gloss, apart from not being as glossy than the original version, until now. It's dried unevenly, showing streaks and with a slight yellowish tinge, the exact reason I didn't want to use an enamel gloss varnish on a white surface.
So, I'll wait a while to let it fully harden, as it still has the 'perfume' smell, even after 16 hours drying time, then see if it can be very lightly rubbed back, before spraying on Xtracrylic Gloss Varnish.
I just hope I can manage to avoid getting any clear coat on the polished surface of the fuselage, as this will definitely show up differently. Masking could possibly leave tape marks, now that the surface is polished, so care will be needed.
I'm not that keen on the Xtracrylic clear coats, as they really 'bung up' the airbrush, even when heavily thinned, and it bugs the cr@p out of me that companies change products, for no apparent reason, which have been working as intended for decades !
I'm now regretting not using the gloss white paint in the first place, as I feel it would have been much better than what I have at the moment, even if the (new) paint was a touch suspect.
I'll try to post another up-date, with pics, later tonight, given I'm not hurting too much, as other areas have been completed, such as the wing tanks and some panel lines, although I was hoping, by now, to show the first of the decals in place.
I got the gloss clear coat on the wings, using Johnsons' 'Klear' (Future), applied with a brush, but it's bl**dy awful !
It's that same bottle I had problems with when mixing with Tamiya Flat Base, to make a matt clear coat for the P-47, but it hasn't shown any major problems when used as a gloss, apart from not being as glossy than the original version, until now. It's dried unevenly, showing streaks and with a slight yellowish tinge, the exact reason I didn't want to use an enamel gloss varnish on a white surface.
So, I'll wait a while to let it fully harden, as it still has the 'perfume' smell, even after 16 hours drying time, then see if it can be very lightly rubbed back, before spraying on Xtracrylic Gloss Varnish.
I just hope I can manage to avoid getting any clear coat on the polished surface of the fuselage, as this will definitely show up differently. Masking could possibly leave tape marks, now that the surface is polished, so care will be needed.
I'm not that keen on the Xtracrylic clear coats, as they really 'bung up' the airbrush, even when heavily thinned, and it bugs the cr@p out of me that companies change products, for no apparent reason, which have been working as intended for decades !
I'm now regretting not using the gloss white paint in the first place, as I feel it would have been much better than what I have at the moment, even if the (new) paint was a touch suspect.
I'll try to post another up-date, with pics, later tonight, given I'm not hurting too much, as other areas have been completed, such as the wing tanks and some panel lines, although I was hoping, by now, to show the first of the decals in place.
Crimea_River
Marshal
Sad to hear your clear coat let you down Terry. Rather than sanding the streaks out and risking damage to the white, you may wish to try removing the coat entirely using a household ammonia based cleaner. I've successfully removed a build-up of Future with Windex window cleaner.
- Thread starter
- #144
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
The problem is, finding an ammonia-based window cleaner Andy !
When I had the problem with the Future-based matt clear going 'cloudy' on the P-47, I searched high and low for a suitable window cleaner (Haven't seen 'Windex' in the UK), to no avail. They all have some sort of ammonia substitute, with a similar-sounding name (can't remember off-hand what the chemical is called though), where once many were advertised as 'with vinegar' !
So I bought the most common, with the same spec as all the rest - and it had b*gg*r all effect !
Wasn't that good at cleaning glass, either !
I might try a very light application of 'T-Cut', which has got ammonia in it, testing first on a small area under the tail plane.
Or it may well be that a 'proper' clear coat might get rid of the 'streaky' areas, as they actually look more like patches of semi-gloss and matt wax - there's no full gloss finish with this cr@p !
It is certainly very different from the original, crystal-clear liquid, sold as 'Klear' in the UK, and as 'Future' elsewhere, which came in a clear plastic bottle.
Where the original went on smoothly and thin, drying quickly to a hard gloss, this stuff, in an opaque, white bottle, looks milky, with a yellowish tinge, goes on unevenly, like liquid wax, and dries like I suppose it's designed to - like wax, with that waxy, semi-translucent sheen, as if awaiting a vigorous polish !
It's a real pain, as I've been trying to find a good source of both gloss and matt acrylic varnishes, and have tried a couple so far. Unfortunately, both my local outlets, the LHS and the art shop, only have known 'good stuff' in aerosols, so it means purchasing via on-line stores, with all the extra expense, just to trial various varnishes.
If all else fails, I can go back to using enamel gloss varnish with little problem, apart from much longer drying time, and being unsuitable for use over metallics etc, but I really do need to find a good, acrylic matt varnish, which is matt, not semi-matt as many are, in an economical size - only the very small Tamiya bottles are available in the UK, for example.
A full matt varnish can be adjusted quite easily to semi-matt, up to 'almost gloss', by mixing with gloss, but it's not as easy to get it right the other way around. This is where Future, with Tamiya Flat Base scored, as it was easy to obtain the desired 'mix' and, of course, compared to 'proper' clear coats, Future is cheap - it's only true advantage.
If an enamel matt varnish is used, this will generally yellow with age - looks great when first applied, but after a year or two, it takes on a distinct yellow/brown tinge, as the matting agent changes with light absorption over time.
Ah well, another 'quick build' which has turned into a drama production ! Back to sorting out the problems - and it was going so well, too !
When I had the problem with the Future-based matt clear going 'cloudy' on the P-47, I searched high and low for a suitable window cleaner (Haven't seen 'Windex' in the UK), to no avail. They all have some sort of ammonia substitute, with a similar-sounding name (can't remember off-hand what the chemical is called though), where once many were advertised as 'with vinegar' !
So I bought the most common, with the same spec as all the rest - and it had b*gg*r all effect !
Wasn't that good at cleaning glass, either !
I might try a very light application of 'T-Cut', which has got ammonia in it, testing first on a small area under the tail plane.
Or it may well be that a 'proper' clear coat might get rid of the 'streaky' areas, as they actually look more like patches of semi-gloss and matt wax - there's no full gloss finish with this cr@p !
It is certainly very different from the original, crystal-clear liquid, sold as 'Klear' in the UK, and as 'Future' elsewhere, which came in a clear plastic bottle.
Where the original went on smoothly and thin, drying quickly to a hard gloss, this stuff, in an opaque, white bottle, looks milky, with a yellowish tinge, goes on unevenly, like liquid wax, and dries like I suppose it's designed to - like wax, with that waxy, semi-translucent sheen, as if awaiting a vigorous polish !
It's a real pain, as I've been trying to find a good source of both gloss and matt acrylic varnishes, and have tried a couple so far. Unfortunately, both my local outlets, the LHS and the art shop, only have known 'good stuff' in aerosols, so it means purchasing via on-line stores, with all the extra expense, just to trial various varnishes.
If all else fails, I can go back to using enamel gloss varnish with little problem, apart from much longer drying time, and being unsuitable for use over metallics etc, but I really do need to find a good, acrylic matt varnish, which is matt, not semi-matt as many are, in an economical size - only the very small Tamiya bottles are available in the UK, for example.
A full matt varnish can be adjusted quite easily to semi-matt, up to 'almost gloss', by mixing with gloss, but it's not as easy to get it right the other way around. This is where Future, with Tamiya Flat Base scored, as it was easy to obtain the desired 'mix' and, of course, compared to 'proper' clear coats, Future is cheap - it's only true advantage.
If an enamel matt varnish is used, this will generally yellow with age - looks great when first applied, but after a year or two, it takes on a distinct yellow/brown tinge, as the matting agent changes with light absorption over time.
Ah well, another 'quick build' which has turned into a drama production ! Back to sorting out the problems - and it was going so well, too !
Crimea_River
Marshal
Surprising that there is not an equivalent to Windex in the UK. Any ammonia based cleaner should work, provided you dilute it sufficiently.
A4K
Brigadier General
Damn sorry to hear Terry, but I hope you can find a solution.
- Thread starter
- #147
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks Andy and Evan. I haven't been able to find any ammonia-based cleaning solutions of any kind - maybe UK H&S rules prohibit its use ?
I haven't done anything to the clear coat yet, but I'm about to have a little experiment, so might have something to show some time tomorrow.
I haven't done anything to the clear coat yet, but I'm about to have a little experiment, so might have something to show some time tomorrow.
A4K
Brigadier General
Good luck Terry! If that dosen't work, try and get in contact with some shark fishermen - apparently sharks are full of ammonia!
(To be able to eat them, you have to cut their throat and hang them by the tail for a few days to drain it all out first, so I was told, otherwise it stays in the meat)
(To be able to eat them, you have to cut their throat and hang them by the tail for a few days to drain it all out first, so I was told, otherwise it stays in the meat)
- Thread starter
- #149
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Not a lot of shark fisherman in this part of Cheshire Evan - which is surprising, considering the amount of sharks there are around here. Female ones, and very ugly to boot !
Anyway, I had a go with the 'T-Cut', a rather drastic measure in my view, and this seems to have improved things, although I was quite surprised that it didn't completely remove the 'Future', but just cut it back.
The first two pics show the top and bottom of the main wing before using the 'T-Cut', and the last two show the effect after a good rub with it. The 'tinted' areas on the white wing are residue of the car-body colour restorer, which has since been washed off. There is also some damage to one of the wing-tip tanks, where the 'T-Cut' removed the paint, and both tanks will be re-painted, and have the joint-lines re-done.
So, all being well, I can apply a 'proper' acrylic gloss tomorrow, after ceremoniously dumping the bottle of 'Johnson's Pledge with Klear' in the bin, as it's about as much use as a chocolate tea pot, and repair the damage to the wing tanks and the leading edges of both wings.
Alternatively, I might spray the wing tops with gloss white, and I think I might even have some acrylic gloss white too, but I'll decide tomorrow, when I'm, hopefully, more rested.
Next hurdle is to try to improve the look of the matt black on the intakes and anti-dazzle panel, and then move on to start with the decals.
Anyway, I had a go with the 'T-Cut', a rather drastic measure in my view, and this seems to have improved things, although I was quite surprised that it didn't completely remove the 'Future', but just cut it back.
The first two pics show the top and bottom of the main wing before using the 'T-Cut', and the last two show the effect after a good rub with it. The 'tinted' areas on the white wing are residue of the car-body colour restorer, which has since been washed off. There is also some damage to one of the wing-tip tanks, where the 'T-Cut' removed the paint, and both tanks will be re-painted, and have the joint-lines re-done.
So, all being well, I can apply a 'proper' acrylic gloss tomorrow, after ceremoniously dumping the bottle of 'Johnson's Pledge with Klear' in the bin, as it's about as much use as a chocolate tea pot, and repair the damage to the wing tanks and the leading edges of both wings.
Alternatively, I might spray the wing tops with gloss white, and I think I might even have some acrylic gloss white too, but I'll decide tomorrow, when I'm, hopefully, more rested.
Next hurdle is to try to improve the look of the matt black on the intakes and anti-dazzle panel, and then move on to start with the decals.
Attachments
Crimea_River
Marshal
That's turned out rather well Terry.
Catch22
Major
Yeah, it looks pretty good now.
- Thread starter
- #153
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks chaps.
I still haven't decided on whether to paint the wing top, or just gloss coat it, but I'll be doing one or the other some time tonight, once the surrounding paint repairs are fully dry.
I'm not totally happy with the repair to the paint work, as it's not quite as smooth as the original finish, although to be fair, if given a coat of semi-gloss clear, it'll probably pass inspection.
I can't risk 'mucking about' much more, as the more the model is handled, the more risk of damage to the shine on the fuselage, and possible further paint abrasion, so I'll just have to carry on, and do the best I can, with areas such as the anti-dazzle panel and shock cones staying as they are - with a possibility of maybe trying to rectify them at a later date, when the overall paint finish will have truly hardened with time.
It really annoys me that sub-standard paints or varnishes can potentially ruin what was turning out to be quite a nice model, allowing for such things as perhaps less than perfect joints, and the fact that I now have to change materials and practices I've used for many, many years without problems is an additional inconvenience. But that seems to be the 'norm' these days, with products, whether biscuits or cars, paint or packaging, being produced to a 'It'll do' standard, and the companies concerned not giving a Monkey's, as long as they bring in the revenue to keep the share-holders happy.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings - I'll try to post some more progress pics very soon, given I make some noticeable progress of course.
I still haven't decided on whether to paint the wing top, or just gloss coat it, but I'll be doing one or the other some time tonight, once the surrounding paint repairs are fully dry.
I'm not totally happy with the repair to the paint work, as it's not quite as smooth as the original finish, although to be fair, if given a coat of semi-gloss clear, it'll probably pass inspection.
I can't risk 'mucking about' much more, as the more the model is handled, the more risk of damage to the shine on the fuselage, and possible further paint abrasion, so I'll just have to carry on, and do the best I can, with areas such as the anti-dazzle panel and shock cones staying as they are - with a possibility of maybe trying to rectify them at a later date, when the overall paint finish will have truly hardened with time.
It really annoys me that sub-standard paints or varnishes can potentially ruin what was turning out to be quite a nice model, allowing for such things as perhaps less than perfect joints, and the fact that I now have to change materials and practices I've used for many, many years without problems is an additional inconvenience. But that seems to be the 'norm' these days, with products, whether biscuits or cars, paint or packaging, being produced to a 'It'll do' standard, and the companies concerned not giving a Monkey's, as long as they bring in the revenue to keep the share-holders happy.
Anyway, enough of my ramblings - I'll try to post some more progress pics very soon, given I make some noticeable progress of course.
Lovely work so far Terry!
- Thread starter
- #155
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks very much Hugh, it's appreciated, especially after all the mucking about over the past couple of days !
Well, I decided to just gloss coat the wings and, as a precaution against total failure, I did the underside first, using 'Xtracrylix Gloss Varnish'.
I wish I hadn't, and I'm glad I tried it on the underside first !
The first thing that struck me about this product, was the fact that it was white, looking rather like PVA, and identical in appearance to the 'Xtracrylix Flat Varnish'.
OK, you can expect a matt acrylic varnish to possibly be white, and, once thinned, it'll still look somewhat 'milky', but will dry matt - or semi-matt in the case of the 'Xtracrylix' product - but surely a gloss acrylic varnish shouldn't be totally opaque white ?
I sprayed the underside of the wings, after thinning as per the instructions, and it dried almost full matt. Two more coats, and it had a slight sheen.
A test using a paint brush showed that something approaching a gloss finish was possible, but, of course, being acrylic, at the cost of an uneven finish with heavy brush-marks.
So, a further five coats were sprayed on, and I finally got a sort of gloss, but patchy, finish. I also noticed that, where slight over-spray had touched some of the polished 'metal' surface, this had dried matt, something that has never happened before, using gloss acrylic on a metallic enamel.
Not having used 'Xtracrylix Gloss' before, I don't know if it should look white, and I'm wondering if it's actually the same 'Flat Varnish', wrongly labelled.
I'd appreciate comments from any one who has used this product.
Anyway, there was no way I was going to use this stuff on the white of the upper wing surfaces, so this area was sprayed with 'Xtracolor Gloss Varnish' a traditional enamel, thinned with white spirit. One coat, sprayed without problem, did the job, and resulted in a smooth, high-gloss finish.
This will need to be toned-down slightly, once the decals have been applied, as it is probably too glossy to be 'in scale', which is one of the reasons I didn't use it, or gloss white paint, in the first place, even if I'd had some decent paint. But I'll see what it's like once it's settled, and the decals have been applied.
PICS 1 to 3 show the two bottles of acrylic varnishes, looking identical apart from the labels, and the underside and upper surface of the wing after spraying with the varnishes mentioned above. They are both still drying in these pics, and apologies for the poor lighting.
Whilst the model was drying, I decided to check-out what will be required for 'Part 2' of this build, the production of the same aircraft after disposal by the CAF, when in Danish service, which I'll tag-on to the end of this build thread.
The kit is the old ESCI F-104C which, although a bit basic by today's standards, and with heavy raised surface detail which will need to be removed and re-scribed, appears to be fairly decent, and it also looks like the fit of parts will be better than that of the older Revell kit (in its new boxing) used in the present build.
Apart from the re-engraving of panel lines, and correcting some wrongly detailed areas (example - the auxiliary intake doors are upside down!), the main area which will need attention is the tail fin which, on the 'C' model, was shorter, and narrower in chord with a smaller, shorter rudder, and a shorter 'nib' on the exhaust shroud. Having compared this area to a scale drawing, it should be relatively straightforward to alter this to the taller, wider, CF-104/F-104G tail.
PICS 4 to 6 show the box art for the ESCI kit, and a comparison and overlay of the 'C' model tail with that of the CF-104/F-104G.
That's it for now, but given that the gloss clear coats dry properly, and are acceptable enough, I'm hoping to start on the decals, probably tomorrow - or later today, given I've just noticed the time !
Thanks again for your continued interest and kind comments during this rather frustrating 'getting back to the bench' build.
Well, I decided to just gloss coat the wings and, as a precaution against total failure, I did the underside first, using 'Xtracrylix Gloss Varnish'.
I wish I hadn't, and I'm glad I tried it on the underside first !
The first thing that struck me about this product, was the fact that it was white, looking rather like PVA, and identical in appearance to the 'Xtracrylix Flat Varnish'.
OK, you can expect a matt acrylic varnish to possibly be white, and, once thinned, it'll still look somewhat 'milky', but will dry matt - or semi-matt in the case of the 'Xtracrylix' product - but surely a gloss acrylic varnish shouldn't be totally opaque white ?
I sprayed the underside of the wings, after thinning as per the instructions, and it dried almost full matt. Two more coats, and it had a slight sheen.
A test using a paint brush showed that something approaching a gloss finish was possible, but, of course, being acrylic, at the cost of an uneven finish with heavy brush-marks.
So, a further five coats were sprayed on, and I finally got a sort of gloss, but patchy, finish. I also noticed that, where slight over-spray had touched some of the polished 'metal' surface, this had dried matt, something that has never happened before, using gloss acrylic on a metallic enamel.
Not having used 'Xtracrylix Gloss' before, I don't know if it should look white, and I'm wondering if it's actually the same 'Flat Varnish', wrongly labelled.
I'd appreciate comments from any one who has used this product.
Anyway, there was no way I was going to use this stuff on the white of the upper wing surfaces, so this area was sprayed with 'Xtracolor Gloss Varnish' a traditional enamel, thinned with white spirit. One coat, sprayed without problem, did the job, and resulted in a smooth, high-gloss finish.
This will need to be toned-down slightly, once the decals have been applied, as it is probably too glossy to be 'in scale', which is one of the reasons I didn't use it, or gloss white paint, in the first place, even if I'd had some decent paint. But I'll see what it's like once it's settled, and the decals have been applied.
PICS 1 to 3 show the two bottles of acrylic varnishes, looking identical apart from the labels, and the underside and upper surface of the wing after spraying with the varnishes mentioned above. They are both still drying in these pics, and apologies for the poor lighting.
Whilst the model was drying, I decided to check-out what will be required for 'Part 2' of this build, the production of the same aircraft after disposal by the CAF, when in Danish service, which I'll tag-on to the end of this build thread.
The kit is the old ESCI F-104C which, although a bit basic by today's standards, and with heavy raised surface detail which will need to be removed and re-scribed, appears to be fairly decent, and it also looks like the fit of parts will be better than that of the older Revell kit (in its new boxing) used in the present build.
Apart from the re-engraving of panel lines, and correcting some wrongly detailed areas (example - the auxiliary intake doors are upside down!), the main area which will need attention is the tail fin which, on the 'C' model, was shorter, and narrower in chord with a smaller, shorter rudder, and a shorter 'nib' on the exhaust shroud. Having compared this area to a scale drawing, it should be relatively straightforward to alter this to the taller, wider, CF-104/F-104G tail.
PICS 4 to 6 show the box art for the ESCI kit, and a comparison and overlay of the 'C' model tail with that of the CF-104/F-104G.
That's it for now, but given that the gloss clear coats dry properly, and are acceptable enough, I'm hoping to start on the decals, probably tomorrow - or later today, given I've just noticed the time !
Thanks again for your continued interest and kind comments during this rather frustrating 'getting back to the bench' build.
Attachments
Crimea_River
Marshal
You're certainly having some frustrations there Terry. I've not used that product before so can't comment. The best people to ask might be those who produce those spectacular gloss finishes on car models.
A4K
Brigadier General
Not an easy process at all Terry, but she's starting to look the part!
Catch22
Major
Nice.
- Thread starter
- #159
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Thanks chaps. I notice that Humbrol now have larger bottles of clear, gloss and matt acrylic varnish, which I can get from my LHS, or I can get Vallejo from an on-line shop I often use. I've heard good reports about the latter, so I'll probably try that. It's the matt that's the important one, so I've got to find a good acrylic one.
Nothing more done today, so far, as I've had a lazy day, doing absolutely b*gg*r all !
Nothing more done today, so far, as I've had a lazy day, doing absolutely b*gg*r all !
- Thread starter
- #160
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I've started on the decals, using the excellent sheet from David Winter's 'Canuck Decals' range.
These are beautifully printed, and include some very fine detail in such areas as the stencils. One thing I've just noticed though - there are enough numbers to create just about any serial number for the fin and the 'last three' on the fuselage, but not to complete the 3-digit number on the underside of the port wing (unless it's '762', as included as complete decals for the fuselage and fin.).
This means I'll have to adapt the vertical stroke from the figure '4' to make a '1', which shouldn't be too difficult - I hope !
The 'Red Ensign' flag on the port fin has been positioned in accordance with the photos taken at Prestwick, which is slightly different to that shown on the excellent, colour drawings accompanying the decal sheet. The 'last three' have yet to be added here, and on the starboard side of the nose, and I hope to possibly get some more done sometime tomorrow.
The pics show the progress so far.
These are beautifully printed, and include some very fine detail in such areas as the stencils. One thing I've just noticed though - there are enough numbers to create just about any serial number for the fin and the 'last three' on the fuselage, but not to complete the 3-digit number on the underside of the port wing (unless it's '762', as included as complete decals for the fuselage and fin.).
This means I'll have to adapt the vertical stroke from the figure '4' to make a '1', which shouldn't be too difficult - I hope !
The 'Red Ensign' flag on the port fin has been positioned in accordance with the photos taken at Prestwick, which is slightly different to that shown on the excellent, colour drawings accompanying the decal sheet. The 'last three' have yet to be added here, and on the starboard side of the nose, and I hope to possibly get some more done sometime tomorrow.
The pics show the progress so far.
