Saving Private Ryan - Tank Busters

[plan_D]

Does your dad sit there and just bash the piece of metal? It sounds to me he uses it as a rest so he doesn't damage what he is hitting. In that case it's hardly going to dent.

High velocity chunks of metal will dent the armour though, making it weaker. The point at which it has been dented is weaker due to stress on the framework.

And as lanc quite correctly stated the ground clearance on a tank isn't huge, it's not going to allow the rounds to go all over the places. Do you want to lay under a tank and see how confined it is?

 

[lesofprimus]

I do not have links to those reports. Wish I did....... If I had known how important it would be nowadays, i would have figured a way to copy the microfiche...

But the fact is that i read them, and if ud like to call me a liar, I'd be pleased to discuss it with u over a beer and a punch in the mouth.....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

You are correct the only aircraft that would dive down on the target were dive bombers. The rest of them would sort of glide to the target. For instance a Fw-190 would come in and then climb just ever so slightly then glide down over the target and then fly away. It was more like a straf then a dive. I just got this from my book Die Grosse Deutsche Luftschlachten des Zweiten Weltkriegs which covers the aircraft and tactics used in ground attack and dog fighting for the Luftwaffe in the 2nd World War.

Spit IXs with the 2cdTAF would dive at angles up to 60 degrees.

Yes but wouldn't you think that it would more affective the other way? Just wondering your thoughts on this.

 

[Soren]

Jesus christs ! You can't show a simple illustration without people running mad !

A Typhoon would also sometimes dive at 45 degree angles on its prey, but lets just say 30 degree's if that makes you guys happy, in any case the outcome is the same. If you decrase the angle of impact, the angle 'after' impact will only be sharper anyway, further decreasing the penetrative ability of the projectile.

Note I didnt write any angle on the projectile after impact, so I don't know what all this hype about the 'same angle after impact' is. The fact of the matter is, after impact the round is blunt and now tumbling, making its chances worse than that of a .30 cal AP round !

As a side note: lesofprimus your supposed to be an Admin, so stop being so aggressive ! Admin's are the ones who secure order on a forum, not the ones who try and brake it. Im sure we could have some interesting discussions here if the insults were kept back.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

In Les's defense he just tries to get to the point, he does not like beating around the bush.

 

[plan_D]

You drew an illustration of a round bouncing in and coming out at the exact same angle. Why use an illustration if you know it's not accurate? You can't accurately illustrate a ricochet.

If the round goes into the ground and dents the ground, it could even bounce back the way it came. There is always a possibility that the round would bounce up, straight from hitting the ground.

 

[Soren]

You drew an illustration of a round bouncing in and coming out at the exact same angle. Why use an illustration if you know it's not accurate? You can't accurately illustrate a ricochet.

Exactly ! The Illustration was to show an approximate to how the round shape and ballistics would be after impact. The angle after impact was left out for obvious reasons, "Its unpredictable"

If the round goes into the ground and dents the ground, it could even bounce back the way it came. There is always a possibility that the round would bounce up, straight from hitting the ground.

And how does this support your arguement about hitting the same spot again and again ?

 

[plan_D]

That's not supporting the rounds hitting the same small area this is; the small confines and low profile of the under-belly of a tank would concentrate the rounds into a small area.

The round can be bouncing at any angle at the tank but if it's hit something almost straight after it's bounced, it's hitting the same sort of area as another one that might bounce further out, or further up. The small confines of a tank don't allow the rounds to bounce all over the place.

 

[Soren]

That's not supporting the rounds hitting the same small area this is; the small confines and low profile of the under-belly of a tank would concentrate the rounds into a small area.

The round can be bouncing at any angle at the tank but if it's hit something almost straight after it's bounced, it's hitting the same sort of area as another one that might bounce further out, or further up. The small confines of a tank don't allow the rounds to bounce all over the place.

Plan_D by the first impact atleast 80% of the rounds energy is gone, now how much energy do you think a round will have after bouncing off hard surfaces twice ? It is just not plausible against 25mm of armor.

As wmaxt said: "The accounts I've read mention the rounds going into the intake and cooling systems. This was to cause fire/overheating resulting in the evacuation of the crew and allowing them to be shot at. Armor was never claimed to be penetrated. "

 

[lesofprimus]

80% loss of energy??? WTF are u smoking???

Regular ground strafing by aircraft was rarely done in a diving attitude....... A shallow glide was usually the attack profile of choice, although some aircraft did otherwise...

As i said earlier, a cannon shell that SKIPS rather than ricochettes or bounces off a surface, be it dirt or pavement, will not necessarily be blunt or tumble, and will not lose as much velocity as to what u are stating......

I have alittle experience with weapons, and can tell u that this is a fact...
Shooting a .50 cal at something large will usually demonstrate this quite quickly.......

As for ur other little attempt at trying to give this website and its Admins some advice on how to do our jobs and run this place, lemme let u in on a little secret...

Since the first day I came onto this site, I have carried the same aggressiveness, attitude, and insensitivity as I do today...

And guess what......... I was invited to be an Admin...

So why dont u just have a nice cup of shutdafukup and keep ur wise-ass comments to urself........ Or are u just trying to mimick MY attitude???

 

[KraziKanuK]

So why dont u just have a nice cup of shutdafukup and keep ur wise-ass comments to urself........

Well the senior Admins should take a second look, for you being an Admin should be revoked with the crappy attitude you have.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Ooooo, this ain't gonna be pretty!

 

[lesofprimus]

If that was some sort of attempt at offending me, better try harder tough guy....

Its really quite amazing that u even realized that I have a crappy attitude...... U must really pay attention to me and my posts..... Most just ignore me....

Im so sorry that Im letting u down and not meeting ur expectations of what a PROPER Admin should be... Can I make it up to u??? Cook u breakfast??? Rub ur back??? Give u alittle lovin???

Oh, my bad........ Sorens already got u impaled on his.......

You know whats really funny...... The odds of u saying that to my face are so astronomical, ud have a better chance of seeing Osama light a fart.....

All u keyboard pussies crack me up......

 

[Nonskimmer]

All u keyboard pussies crack me up......

Even me?

 

[lesofprimus]

Dude u serve in uniform and protect the lives of innocents. There aint nothing pussyish about that mano.......

 

[Nonskimmer]

Well, I like to think so.

 

[lesofprimus]

Anyone with half a brain, even these 2 dolts up above, can realize that......

 

[Soren]

Dude u serve in uniform and protect the lives of innocents. There aint nothing pussyish about that mano.......

Well I'll let you know that I served aswell, and people with an attitude like you would quickly learn their lesson in the army !

You need to have a little respect for other individuals primus, or you'll get none yourself. Im confident that if you hold your insults back, some interesting could come out of this discussion, but your aggressiveness just pulls us all further and further off topic.

 

[lesofprimus]

LOL..... The ARMY???????

HA!

I ran circles around those pussies at Benning......

In case u havent happen to notice, I served with distinction in the Special Warfare community.... Hence the Avatar to ur left..... Alittle breakdown of ur very calm, intelligent post........

You need to have a little respect for other individuals

No, I don't......

or you'll get none yourself.

Sure I will, not that it matters....

but your aggressiveness

I guess I should change my attitude and posting style that I've had for the last 10 months just for special little ol' u......

Heres a clue Pal.... I get along with everyone here except for a couple turds in the bowl........ New turds I might add....... Ive been away awhile, and u missed my apparent uniqueness here........ Ur getting a pretty swift introduction......

Heres something pretty simple for u to understand...... Ur a noob here and u dont just come here with ur dicka swingin and try to just insult and combat the long standing members here.... U earn ur place, just like in ur precious little Army........

"I think U've been cheated...... The best part of u ran down the crack of ur Momma'a ass and ended up as a brown stain on the mattress......"
-Full Metal Jacket

I live for confrontations, and u and a few others make my day..... However, there are, of course, other alternatives for u to excercise......... One is to conform and be respectful of others opinions, as they are 2 urs...... Then theres the other way........ My favorite way......

Remember, again as a reminder, that I dont have problems with any of the other members here, (well....most of em hehe) and get along quite nicely if I do say so myself...

So maybe, just maybe, the problem isnt with me..........

Hmmmmmmmmm...

 

[DAVIDICUS]

Lesboprimus,

You said, "As i said earlier, a cannon shell that SKIPS rather than ricochettes or bounces off a surface, be it dirt or pavement, will not necessarily be blunt or tumble, and will not lose as much velocity as to what u are stating......"

You have been betrayed by your "little experience with weapons" which you no doubt obtained on line in your special warfare gaming community. Anyone who claims to have served in a combat role who makes ridiculous statements like you just did above is full of shit.

If a round, hits the ground at ANY angle, it will be knocked off its concentric axis and begin to tumble. I don't care if we're talking about a 125 grain .357 Magnum or a round from a 20mm. All projectiles will behave the same upon striking the earth, ground, pavement, whatever at an angle and ricocheting, bouncing or skipping off that surface. Size does not matter. (I know this runs contrary to what your wife tells you.) They rely on the same principle of rotation for stability as a result of their similar shapes.

In addition, a round that strikes the earth, ground, pavement, whatever at an angle and ricochets off that surface will suffer some deformity in the process. All things being equal, the deformity will generally be more severe at highet angles of strike.

All rounds will also lose velocity and thus energy as a result of a strike that redirects their flight path.

Velocity has an interesting relationship to the energy carried by a projectile. If you double the weight of a projectile at a given velocity, you double the energy. But if you double the velocity of the same projectile, you will quadruple the energy.

If you bleed just 30% of the velocity off of a projectile, it maintains only 55% of its original energy.

A 30% reduction of velocity as a result of traversing the distance from the weapon to the earth, ground, pavement, whatever and then striking said earth, ground, pavement, would easily result in a 30% reduction in velocity of the now redirected round. This redirected round, which only has 55% of its original energy, would strike the armor plate both at an angle and across a greater surface area since the projectile is no longer traveling along its concentric axis and is deformed.

In addition, armor piercing rounds are not homogenous throughout their structure. They have jackets made of soft metal designed to be engaged by the rifling in the barrel which is made from very hard steel. This is how they develop rotational stability.

They have tips that are hard steel. The tip is literally the exposed top of the core of the projectile. The projectile is designed that way for a reason. It isn't very effective at penetrating armor plate unless it strikes tip first perpendicular to its concentric axis in order to take advantage of its sectional density. (That's jibberish for "It strikes with the exposed hard tip in such a fashion as to concentrate its energy across the smallest area."

So, to recap my example, we have rounds with about half their energy (probably less as there would likely be a greater than 30% loss of velocity) that are deformed and strike at various angles and in various states of "sidewaysness." (Look, I invented a new word.)

So, who still thinks that such rounds can penetrate an inch of hardened steel plate in light of the fact that a round from an armor piercing 20mm Hispano II at zero degrees angle can only penetrate less than an inch (24mm) of hardened armor plate at 400 yards to begin with?