Ta 152H-1 vs P-51H

[Erich]

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[lesofprimus]

Copyright © 1997 by Claes Sundin Christer Bergström

 

[Erich]

yes the 4-6 Stab a/c received the white spiralschnauze later but first were the plain black-green

thanks for posting this craft Les ! a beautiful a/c it was and still is

 

[V-1710]

O.K., back to the subject- If this discussion is intended to be a comparison between the ultimate expression of the Fw-190 design (which I believe it was) and the ultimate expression of the P-51 design, I question if the H was really the ultimate P-51. Yes, it had the lightweight airframe (which some say was more for range in the Pacific rather than maneuverability), improved wing airfoil (again less drag for greater range), and the larger tail (O.K., that was for maneuverability). But, there was a P-51 derivative that handily outperformed the H, and that was the XP-51J. The J had a higher ceiling (43,700' vs. 41,600'), better climb to 20,000' (5 min. vs. 7.5 min.) and a similar top speed (471 m.p.h. @ 27,000' vs. 487 m.p.h. @ 25,000'). Prof. Tank's claim of easily pulling away from a flight of P-51's that tried to jump him during a test flight could certainly have been true, noting that Tank's 152H-1 probably didn't have full combat equipment, and the P-51's that gave chase were almost certainly D models, which had none of the improvements of the H or J models. Now, before comment is made that the J was purely experimental, you could almost make the claim that the 152 was not really in production either (a total of 67 examples of all types). Further, the P-51J was really the basis for the sensational P-82 Twin Mustang. In any event, I feel that the 152 was already made quite obsolete by the Me-262 in the interceptor role, and the P-51 was on the verge of being eclipsed by the P-80.

 

[Erich]

actually according to TA 152H vets the turn circle was quite good as Reschkes victory over a Tempest suggests, the Me 262 due to speed of the jet could not turn on a dime and in aerial combat 9 out of 10 times this is how the P-51D/K pilots were able to shoot this a/c down. Frankly the Ta 152 in my opinion would of been the high cover for Jets landing and taking off

 

[Soren]

Judging from pilot accounts and aerodynamic data, the Ta 152H-1 could most likely outturn any Allied fighter it met - likely even the Spitfire. (Although only a late mark Spitfire, a +25 lbs/sq.in. boosted Mk.IX would probably prove abit of a mouthfull in a turnfight)


Sal davparlr,

I read your last few posts, and I advice you to read my second last post, then you'll understand why I wrote that the Ta 152H-1 didn't need to fear the P-51H at any altitude.

With a properly functioning engine you can expect the Ta 152H-1 to hit a top speed at sea level in the order of 615+ km/h, and a top speed of ~800+ km/h at altitude ! And climb rate would ofcourse increase quite vastly with this increase in engine power as-well.

 

[Sal Monella]

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[Erich]

in truth the JG 301 pilots "had nothing to fear from the Soviets", as this was the prime contender they were taking on with the Tank models. Again we continue to speculate about this fine a/c ..............

 

[lesofprimus]

And all it will ever be is speculation... We came real close to finding out how the Tank would have handled the Mustangs, but alas, they got bounced by their own countrymen and broke off the engagement...

 

[Sal Monella]

no more

 

[johnbr]

I would have loved to have seen the Ta-152 a DB603Q or n.

 

[Sal Monella]

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[Erich]

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[Sal Monella]

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[Erich]

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[davparlr]

I read your last few posts, and I advice you to read my second last post, then you'll understand why I wrote that the Ta 152H-1 didn't need to fear the P-51H at any altitude.

With a properly functioning engine you can expect the Ta 152H-1 to hit a top speed at sea level in the order of 615+ km/h, and a top speed of ~800+ km/h at altitude ! And climb rate would ofcourse increase quite vastly with this increase in engine power as-well.

I am confused. The site you referenced seem to be the one discussing time to climb. I don't know what this has to do with combat superiority (especially since the time to climb to 7000 m of the P-51H is significantly better than the Ta-152H (5 min to 8 min). Also I agree with Sal. I have not seen those airspeed numbers anywhere. Maybe some pilot reports are coming. Even if the 615 km/hr at SL is correct, it is still more than 60 km/hr slower than the P-51H at SL. However, it would not surprise me if the Ta-152 could hit 800 km/hr at high altitude.

And all it will ever be is speculation... We came real close to finding out how the Tank would have handled the Mustangs, but alas, they got bounced by their own countrymen and broke off the engagement...

Not really since the Mustangs were almost assuredly P-15Ds and would have been sorely pressed against the Ta-152H. The P-51D did not have the performance of the P-51H, they were significantly slower (395 mph vs. 443 mph at 5k ft), had higher wing loading, and lower power to weight ratio than the P-51H.

 

[Sal Monella]

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[Erich]

v/r E ♫

 

[davparlr]

think you are missing my point slightly and am going to have to post one of the JG 301 pilot transcripts. As mentioned earlier the Ta was heavily tested, and evaluated in many situation from pilot to ground control which including at least a dozen personell in many capacities. so importanat was the evaluation of this prop job that there were more than the standard regime' of interested parties including TAnk and his own test staff ........ remember one thing that in combat III./JG 301 pilots and the Stab/JG 301 pilots did not fly the same Ta 152H on every mission.

I am hoping that Monogram will give a full acct of the test values for the a/c, operations maybe difficualt since the full story of JG 301 in 1945 is covered in very small detail. Not even Reschkes own book covers it thourghly.

v/r E ♫

I certainly am hoping with you. It obviously was a great airplane and it would be loss to not have the data you have mentioned.

 

[Jabberwocky]

With a properly functioning engine you can expect the Ta 152H-1 to hit a top speed at sea level in the order of 615+ km/h, and a top speed of ~800+ km/h at altitude ! And climb rate would ofcourse increase quite vastly with this increase in engine power as-well.

I'm gonna call you on that 800+ kph speed at altitude and ask for a source.

I have quite a few copies of original FW data sheets and speed graphs, for both the H and C variants of the TA-152. The fastest speed I can find is 753 kph at 10.5 kilometers for a Ta-152 C-0 fitted with a DB 603 L.

The fastest FW seems to have actually been the 190D-12, which has a graphed speed of about 775 kph with a Jumo 213 F at 3250 rpm and 1.84 ata using B3 fuel

I don't believe the 615 kph at sea level either. Speeds for the H and C models vary from about 575-595 kph, but not any higher. I have two speed graphs for the Ta-152 H-1. The first shows 580 kph at sea level, the second shows 595 kph. I also have a FW data sheet from October 1944, with a H-0 (Jumo 213 E) speed of 580 kph on the deck and 742 kph at 9.5 kilometres altitude.