pbfoot
1st Lieutenant
I guess Ethiopia and Eritrea qualify or we could toss in El Salvador Nicaraugua, or any conflict at all from 48 -91 .
The Cold War Group Build.....
- Thread starter Lucky13
- Start date
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imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
I'm not familiar with details on conflicts you mentioned, but, generally speaking, if super powers were involved in conflict supporting opposing sides and supplying them with weapons as in Middle East, or, directly engaging themselves in conflict as the US did in Vietnam, then yes, that conflicts would be part of the wider context of the Cold war. Just my opinion though.
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Although the VietNam war was not strictly part of what is considered the 'Cold War', as Imalko stated the involvement, directly and inderectly, of the USA and the Soviet Union, had a bearing on the global situation regarding any potential confrontation between NATO and the (former) USSR.
Personally, I would prefer, for the purposes of the GB's, to see Viet Nam, and Korea, covered by separate Group Builds, as I see the 'Cold War' as strictly a potential conflict between NATO (and the 'West' in general) and the USSR and her WARPAC allies, which, as we know, came very close on more than one occassion.
However, in the case of the Yom Kippur war, that was definitely a crucial point in the 'Cold War', aswith the support to both 'sides' from the West and the USSR, it was though that it might be the final turn of the key which could have initiated full-scale war between the USSR and the West. At the time, Soviet forces were mobilised in northern Europe, and moved to within metres of the Finnish border (some actually crossed), and NATO forces in Germany were put on immediate stand-by (I was there!).
Other conflicts that might have 'upset' either the 'West' or the USSR, such as Angola, Erirtria, Somalia, Grenada etc etc were just that - conflicts, which, although perhaps sensitive in as much as they affected East - West diplomatic relationships one way or another, were not on a scale that could have lead to intervention, leading to possible/probable escalation, by one of the so-called 'Super Powers'.
But in general Neil, yes, you are right, the 'Cold War' is normally seen as the uneasy peace between the 'West', and particularly NATO, and the former USSR.
Personally, I would prefer, for the purposes of the GB's, to see Viet Nam, and Korea, covered by separate Group Builds, as I see the 'Cold War' as strictly a potential conflict between NATO (and the 'West' in general) and the USSR and her WARPAC allies, which, as we know, came very close on more than one occassion.
However, in the case of the Yom Kippur war, that was definitely a crucial point in the 'Cold War', aswith the support to both 'sides' from the West and the USSR, it was though that it might be the final turn of the key which could have initiated full-scale war between the USSR and the West. At the time, Soviet forces were mobilised in northern Europe, and moved to within metres of the Finnish border (some actually crossed), and NATO forces in Germany were put on immediate stand-by (I was there!).
Other conflicts that might have 'upset' either the 'West' or the USSR, such as Angola, Erirtria, Somalia, Grenada etc etc were just that - conflicts, which, although perhaps sensitive in as much as they affected East - West diplomatic relationships one way or another, were not on a scale that could have lead to intervention, leading to possible/probable escalation, by one of the so-called 'Super Powers'.
But in general Neil, yes, you are right, the 'Cold War' is normally seen as the uneasy peace between the 'West', and particularly NATO, and the former USSR.
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
It was always my opinion that Vietnam was a part of Cold War because one of the major combatants in that war, the United States, was also one of the main protagonists of Cold War. However, I understand your reasoning to treat Vietnam separately Terry. But this brings us then to one technical question - should entries related to Vietnam be withdrawn from this Cold War GB or not? I think Vietnam related entries should be allowed for the purpose of this Group Build. (Why Yom Kippur war should be included Terry already explained.)
Vietnam war (and Korean war for that matter) sure offer enough possible entries for separate Group Builds, but for the time being there's no such group Builds in our future GB schedule:
Feb 1st-May 31st 2010 - D Day/Invasion Stripes
May 1st-Aug 30th - Cold War/Armor at Kursk Split Build
Aug 1st-Nov 30th - Battle of Britian
Nov 1st, 2010-Feb 28th, 2011 - Commonwealth / Night Fighters Split Build
Feb 1st-May 31st - VVS/Eastern Front 1941-45 Split Build
May 1st-Aug 30th, 2011 - Focke Wulfs Messerschmitts
Aug 1st-Nov 30th - Aces Aircraft of WW2
Nov 1st, 2011-Feb 28th, 2012 - Aircraft in Foreign Service WW2 / Captured Aircraft SPLIT BUILD
Feb 1st-May 31st - Your Favorite Aircraft of All Time
May 1st-Aug 30th - Home Country Modern Aircraft / Spitfire Marks SPLIT BUILD
Aug 1st-Nov 30th - Aircraft Carrier Planes
Nov 1st, 2012-Feb 28th, 2013 - From WW1 to WW2 1914-39
Feb 1st-May 31st - The Jet Age 1944-45 / Recon-Transport-Observer Aircraft of WW2 SPLIT BUILD
Just noticed - Cold War should be split build with "Armour at Kursk" GB, but there isn't a single entry for Kursk so far...
Vietnam war (and Korean war for that matter) sure offer enough possible entries for separate Group Builds, but for the time being there's no such group Builds in our future GB schedule:
Feb 1st-May 31st 2010 - D Day/Invasion Stripes
May 1st-Aug 30th - Cold War/Armor at Kursk Split Build
Aug 1st-Nov 30th - Battle of Britian
Nov 1st, 2010-Feb 28th, 2011 - Commonwealth / Night Fighters Split Build
Feb 1st-May 31st - VVS/Eastern Front 1941-45 Split Build
May 1st-Aug 30th, 2011 - Focke Wulfs Messerschmitts
Aug 1st-Nov 30th - Aces Aircraft of WW2
Nov 1st, 2011-Feb 28th, 2012 - Aircraft in Foreign Service WW2 / Captured Aircraft SPLIT BUILD
Feb 1st-May 31st - Your Favorite Aircraft of All Time
May 1st-Aug 30th - Home Country Modern Aircraft / Spitfire Marks SPLIT BUILD
Aug 1st-Nov 30th - Aircraft Carrier Planes
Nov 1st, 2012-Feb 28th, 2013 - From WW1 to WW2 1914-39
Feb 1st-May 31st - The Jet Age 1944-45 / Recon-Transport-Observer Aircraft of WW2 SPLIT BUILD
Just noticed - Cold War should be split build with "Armour at Kursk" GB, but there isn't a single entry for Kursk so far...
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I keep forgetting about the Kursk split-build!
I'm open reference the inclusion of Viet Nam-specific aircraft in this GB, and leave it to the consensus of the members and other judges. I have already stated that Korean War-specific aircraft are not really part of the 'Cold War' as such, although they are of course within the time period, but so were many other events World-wide which had no direct relationships to what was seen as the Cold War.
The term 'Cold War' followed on from Churchill's (?) comment that, following the actions of the former USSR, an 'Iron Curtain' had come down across Europe, and, especially since the blockade of Berlin and trhe subsequent air-lift, has always been seen as the threat, to NATO, of the former Soviet Union and her satellites crossing the East German border, and invading the rest of Europe, with the probability of direct action against the mainland United States of America, and the subsequent esxcalation into all-out global war.
Although this threat did, of course, mean that the USA in particular paid attention to their left flank, i.e. possible attack from the Western side of the continental USA, the main threat was always considered to be from within the USSR's European borders.
It might be possible that the Viet Nam War, and the Korean War, both suggested as potential future GB's, were considered by some to be part of the Cold War, and therefore the Group Build where, in reality, these were conflicts on a scale which would justify GB's specifically covering these events.
I'm open reference the inclusion of Viet Nam-specific aircraft in this GB, and leave it to the consensus of the members and other judges. I have already stated that Korean War-specific aircraft are not really part of the 'Cold War' as such, although they are of course within the time period, but so were many other events World-wide which had no direct relationships to what was seen as the Cold War.
The term 'Cold War' followed on from Churchill's (?) comment that, following the actions of the former USSR, an 'Iron Curtain' had come down across Europe, and, especially since the blockade of Berlin and trhe subsequent air-lift, has always been seen as the threat, to NATO, of the former Soviet Union and her satellites crossing the East German border, and invading the rest of Europe, with the probability of direct action against the mainland United States of America, and the subsequent esxcalation into all-out global war.
Although this threat did, of course, mean that the USA in particular paid attention to their left flank, i.e. possible attack from the Western side of the continental USA, the main threat was always considered to be from within the USSR's European borders.
It might be possible that the Viet Nam War, and the Korean War, both suggested as potential future GB's, were considered by some to be part of the Cold War, and therefore the Group Build where, in reality, these were conflicts on a scale which would justify GB's specifically covering these events.
Catch22
Major
So where does that leave those two conflicts for the purposes of this build?
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
He He!
To both of you, I'll leave it up to the other judges and the consenus of the members. If it's thought that they should be included, then fine. In fact, if Korea and Viet Nam are included, I can enter my Korean War Sea Fury!!!
I do think however (and this is purely my personal opinion) that both of these conflicts ought to be the subjects of separate GB's, if only for the reasons in the description of the percieved Cold War in my previous post.
Cheers,
T.
To both of you, I'll leave it up to the other judges and the consenus of the members. If it's thought that they should be included, then fine. In fact, if Korea and Viet Nam are included, I can enter my Korean War Sea Fury!!!
I do think however (and this is purely my personal opinion) that both of these conflicts ought to be the subjects of separate GB's, if only for the reasons in the description of the percieved Cold War in my previous post.
Cheers,
T.
dirkpitt289
Master Sergeant
I can see Terry's point about excluding aircraft from the Korean and Vietnam wars but like some have mentioned there is no GB on the horizon for either of those wars. Excluding those conflicts will also exclude quite a few entries. For me this reduces the possibilities I currently have in my stash. 
Not that it would be a make or break deal for me. What I think I really want to build is a century aircraft (Surprised none have been entered yet) but they are kind of elusive in 1/72.
Looks like this debate has narrowed my choices down to a B-47 StratoJet, B-36 Peacemaker and possibly an EC-121 Warning Star all of which are in 1/144. I think I could also build a F9F Panther.
Not that it would be a make or break deal for me. What I think I really want to build is a century aircraft (Surprised none have been entered yet) but they are kind of elusive in 1/72. Looks like this debate has narrowed my choices down to a B-47 StratoJet, B-36 Peacemaker and possibly an EC-121 Warning Star all of which are in 1/144. I think I could also build a F9F Panther.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
OK, as neither the Korean War or the Viet Nam war are in line for GB's in the near future, unless there are any valid objections, these can be included in this Group Build, in order that members can enter an already chosen model.
I will point out though that quite a number of the aircraft types which took part in these conflicts, were also, independantly, in service with Air Forces or units which were considered to be directly related to the Cold War.
With such an extended time-period covered by this GB, there is a truly vast array of aircraft types from which to choose, the majority of which are available as kits, or at least the more well-known types. Also, there are a lot of Air Forces, let alone units, from which to choose, with at least ten (Air Forces) covering the European 'threat' alone.
Perhaps a review of the future GB's might be an idea, as it's evident that there will be some repetitive subjects, with fleets of Bf109's, FW190's, P51's, Spitfires etc expected in at least two of the forthcoming GB's, the type of subjects which have already featured heavily in at least three GB's so far!
Please don't misunderstand me, as I don't really mind one way or the other, but with so much to choose from, it would be nice to have some real variation in the Group Builds in future.
I will point out though that quite a number of the aircraft types which took part in these conflicts, were also, independantly, in service with Air Forces or units which were considered to be directly related to the Cold War.
With such an extended time-period covered by this GB, there is a truly vast array of aircraft types from which to choose, the majority of which are available as kits, or at least the more well-known types. Also, there are a lot of Air Forces, let alone units, from which to choose, with at least ten (Air Forces) covering the European 'threat' alone.
Perhaps a review of the future GB's might be an idea, as it's evident that there will be some repetitive subjects, with fleets of Bf109's, FW190's, P51's, Spitfires etc expected in at least two of the forthcoming GB's, the type of subjects which have already featured heavily in at least three GB's so far!
Please don't misunderstand me, as I don't really mind one way or the other, but with so much to choose from, it would be nice to have some real variation in the Group Builds in future.
dirkpitt289
Master Sergeant
Part of the reason I was/ am looking forward to this Group Build was to get away from the Mustangs, Spitfires, 109's etc. As much as I love those types of aircraft its good to have variety.
Catch22
Major
I completely see where you're coming from Terry, and I agree, but like has been pointed out there isn't a GB for either on the horizon. Yay F4U(s)! 
dirkpitt289
Master Sergeant
I finally made my decision. My entry will be the SR71 Blackbird. It doesn't get more "Cold War" then that unless you can dig up a U2...
T Bolt
Colonel
Excellent pick Dirk! 
Definitely "Cold War" Just how many missiles did Russia shoot at that bird?.... 
Definitely "Cold War" Just how many missiles did Russia shoot at that bird?.... 
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Nice Dirk!
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Great choice Dirk !
A4K
Brigadier General
Echo that...a classic if ever there was one!
- Thread starter
- #138
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
I don't see how we can't include Vietnam and Korea in this GB, two of those times when the Cold War warmed up slightly, much like Cuba in '62.
I think that it's plenty of good subjects even for later of Vietnam and Korea....
It's cool with me either way...
I think that it's plenty of good subjects even for later of Vietnam and Korea....
It's cool with me either way...
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I hope we do have dedicated Viet Nam and Korean War GB's, as again, thereares a lot of potential subjects, apart from Sabres, MiG's, Phantoms and Hueys. Perhaps another poll is needed? There was some interest in both of these subjects, but they seem to have fallen by the wayside, in favour of more Luftwaffe and aces kites, not that there's anything wrong with those of course!
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Hey Dirk, cool choice for a Group build mate. Now only thing we need is to someone enter MiG-25 or MiG-31 in order to try to intercept your Blackbird.
