**** DONE: 1/72 Supermarine Seagull V - Heavy Hitters II GB

[parsifal]

i got it vic and thanks heaps. it will be a big help.

ive done the recovery respray and it looks much better. no wonder though that valom describes it as a 'light Grey" it does look light grey in some ways, just not the grey i used.....iwill post new pics once the coat is dry

 

[Airframes]

Not really my area of specialty, but it's highly unlikely that the pre-war 'Aluminium' doped finish would still be in use during war time.
Certainly, following the Munich Crisis, all RAF aircraft so finished were immediately camouflaged, and this extended to Royal Navy aircraft on out-break of war.
From a brief look at my references, it would appear that the RAN aircraft would carry similar schemes to those of the RN, and the two profiles in the PDFs, from the 'Mushroom' book on the Walrus, show variations in schemes used, certainly from early 1942 onwards, if not before.
However, as mentioned, naval aviation is a weak area for me and, although I believe the Seagull would carry a camouflage scheme, further research is suggested.
Hope this helps.

 

[parsifal]

oh dear............

 

[Vic Balshaw]

I should hang fire on any more changes for the moment Michael. I can't see the profiles posted by Terry but my guess is that they are from a later period of WWII. As said earlier, the Seagull camouflaging came about by a Commonwealth directive in mid 1942, you are doing an aircraft from, if memory serves, early to in 1941. I will do some more hunting as time permits tomorrow and see if I can come up with something more positive.

 

[Airframes]

Yep, hang fire Michael, until Vic comes up with something. From the little I've read, there appears to be very little info on the schemes used on Walrus/Seagull in the Far East theatres, and even fewer photos, so it's entirely possible that camouflage was a late addition - i.e. post Pearl Harbour perhaps, with Japan's entry into the conflict.

 

[Wurger]

Two shots of the A2-4 taken after the WW2... the pic source: Profile 224
I think she is still wearing in the aluminum "uniform".

 

[Wurger]

Still trying to find more about the Seagull V... the next image I have found on site about HMAS Perth .... Untitled Document

Also thare is some of info about Walrus/Seagull V amphibians embarked on the a modified Leander-class light cruiser.

 

[Wurger]

Here is another picture of the HMAS Perth taken in late 1941. I have enlarged it a little bit to see better the amphibian on the catapult. Undoubtedly the kite is of dark camo scheme. According to the info about the HMAS Perth , I had found , the A2-4 was no longer in its naval service at that time. Taking that into consideration I would say that the A2-4 plane was of the aluminium colour all the naval service with the cruiser. After the crash the Seagull was replaced with another plane that could wear different ( late ) camo scheme.

 

[parsifal]

Thanks guys, great stuff. The top profile posted by wurger above is very similar to the one put out by Valom, and in my opinion is a colourised version of the alminium finishes we have been talking about.

at this point I can say that even as late as 1940 the colour scheme was either a very pale greay or aluminium. I can say that because the dunking incident shown in one of Wurgers photos dates back to about august 1940.


So we know the scheme used in 1941 IS going to be either grey/white or ailver grey aluminium any other scheme is going to be wrong.

perth incidentally was in home waters in 1940 after a stint in the west indies and then the med. she redeployed back to the MTO and provided some support in the Red sea and then participated in Matapan. This only complicates the problem, but i believe she retained this rather strange colour schem for her Seagull, since ive seen photos of the same scheme being sported after her return.

So it gets down to two possible contenders...grey/white, or aluminium

Meanwhile im having a go at scratch building the dolly and launch gantry. It would be a very nice option if i can pull it off....

 

[parsifal]

Here is another picture of the HMAS Perth taken in late 1941. I have enlarged it a little bit to see better the amphibian on the catapult. Undoubtedly the kite is of dark camo scheme. According to the info about the HMAS Perth , I had found , the A2-4 was no longer in its naval service at that time. Taking that into consideration I would say that the A2-4 plane was of the aluminium colour all the naval service with the cruiser. After the crash the Seagull was replaced with another plane that could wear different ( late ) camo scheme.

there were four other aircraft that are likely to have operated from the PERTH after august 1941...A2-11 (for a short while), A2-16, L2243, and L2319. these last two are ex RN replacements that arrived towrds the latter part of 1941, so well may have RN type schemes which by then were darker two tone jobs mostly.

A 2-4 embarked PERTH in late 1940 and was on strength until it crashed. However, it remained in service until 1945, though the plane was never again embarked on a ship

 

[Wurger]

According to the site I posted a link to... it was A2-17 but not A2-16..

 

[Wurger]

And here the enlarged part of a picture of the HMAS Perth taken in 1942... again the plane of her is of dark camo scheme.

It might have been the L2319..

 

[Wurger]

Thanks guys, great stuff. The top profile posted by wurger above is very similar to the one put out by Valom, and in my opinion is a colourised version of the alminium finishes we have been talking about.

at this point I can say that even as late as 1940 the colour scheme was either a very pale greay or aluminium. I can say that because the dunking incident shown in one of Wurgers photos dates back to about august 1940....

Yes Michael.. you are right the profile of the A2-4 is colourised variant of the aluminium finishes. Just the publisher wasn't able to use any silver ( aluminium ) paint for printing of that. It happens quite often especially for profiles printed in the past. So no wonder this makes people confused.

As far as the pale grey colour is concerned... we have to remember that the aluminium paint becomes looking grey in the same way the aluminium metal does. Just because of the oxidation process. The aluminium paint is nothing more but aluminium dust mixed with clear lacquer. All weather conditions we can meet over seas make the process quicker.

 

[Airframes]

Good stuff. So, given it was finished in 'Aluminium' dope, it would actually be 'silver', perhaps with a very slight, very light grey tinge.
I find that a good way to replicate this, is to add a very small drop of gloss white to silver, ensuring it's stirred and mixed in well. This 'takes the edge off' the pure silver colour, and looks very like silver dope.
Be sure to try it out first, experimenting for the best result by adding a very small drop of the white first, painting a piece of scrap and letting it dry. Then, adjust as required and Bob's your Uncle !

 

[Vic Balshaw]

This is a real sticky one which I've found after reading several references, contradicts itself.

The facts are that in July 1940 the RAAF Headquarters issued a directive on the forms and types of camouflage and the roundel colours, listing the configuration to be used on each aircraft type in current use with the RAAF. At that time the Seagull V (Walrus) was designated to be Type L configuration.

Type L configuration reads:
Upper surface, top mainplane and hull, extra dark sea grey. Upper surface lower mainplane, dark sea grey and light slate grey. Red and blue circles both sides of hull and top of upper mainplane. Red, white and blue circles on under surface of lower mainplane. All undersurfaces sky grey

A Commonwealth directive in July 1942 called for the Seagull/Walrus camouflage to be extra dark sea grey and dark slate grey upper surfaces with sky blue undersurfaces.

Now having said all this, when looking at the many photographs of the Seagull/Walrus on the web and in reference books, the majority show up in a light colour and certainly not the extra dark sea grey as has be directed.

My readings also discovered that there was a general apathy within the RAAF to adhere to the directives of aircraft camouflage painting, the general feeling was that there were more important things to do, like fighting a war rather than applying paint.

In general my own feeling is that photographic evidence shows more Seagulls in a lighter shade such as light grey (now considered to be aluminium dope) than in the deeper shades of extra dark sea grey. So I would in all honesty go for the aluminium dope colour.

 

[parsifal]

I have to agree with Vic on this. moreover, its worth noting that whilst the units to which the Sweagulls were attached remained under nomial RAAF control, in reality, especially for Seagulls embarked on ships, the personnel were mostly RAN people. Pilots were frequently Naval officers that had been sent to Point Cook for Training and given (I think) short service commissions in the RAAF so that they were entitled to fly RAAF equipment.

Terry's advice on how to add a grey or faded look to the aluminium dope is also good advice I think....however given that I rushed in before we had this discussion, i was wondering how I might "tone down" the aluminium finish if its already applied. I was thinking of adding a very small amount of white, or using cloudy clearcoat (which I have) or mixing a small amount of a colour called "smoke" (essentially a translucent "dirty" topcoat) into the top clear finish that I was intending to apply. I might do up some test strips and see how these ideas actually look.

 

[Wayne Little]

adding to the clear coat is probably the easiest way, as you say trial options first and keep the coats very light to ensure you don't go too far and overspray too much...

 

[parsifal]

Ive spent the weekend working on a launch ramp which i intend to use as abase for the completed model. I used a platic ladder from a broken fire engine toy that my son (the older one0had fom over 20 years ago. its too short by about a thirds, buts its the right width and had pretty much the right steel framing pattern. i had to add rails at the top, andother row of framework at the base and the support stauncheons as well as the pulley apparatus at one ene. I made the circular base out of wood which i turned on the lathe. Its not even painted properly yeat, and still not finihed, but worth posting for any comments or advice..

i ve also paintedthe model, but have not yet appliesd a clear coat (with possible "smoke" added). havent had time yet to test the theory. Im really not sure it needs it to be honest. what do you guys think???

 

[Wurger]

Sorry Michael for the delay but I have had to switch to references for Australian WW2 ships that are gathered in my cellar. Here are drawings for the catapult of the HMAS Perth.
The Zip file contains a larger ( a better quality of details ) scan of the diagram.

 

[Airframes]

I like it! Well done Michael, and good stuff Wojtek.
Now, how long do you think it'll take you to scratch-build the rest of the ship .....?!!