Military May Lift Ban on Women in Submarines....

[sabrina]

All right, I'm a woman myself and I totally agree that this isn't going to work....I can see where they're coming from, and I think it's great that we have strong, unselfish women who are willing to sacrifice their lives for their country....

....but there are plenty of places in which to do so....plenty of opportunities in the army, navy, air force, marines, you name it, without causing a potential BIG problem by cohabiting on board a cramped submarine. I really don't think this is going to be a pretty situation...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

They should just have an all women crew. Might be an interesting thing to try out. I say this because I personally do not have a problem with women on submarines. I think women could do the job just as good as men could. I however do not think that women and men can co-exist on a submarine without major problems ranging from hostility, sex, and the fact that there just is no room to have separate living and hygiene spaces in the cramped confines of a submarine.

 

[RabidAlien]

That scenario has been tossed about as well, Adler...the common deterrent to that, the one everyone repeats at the deckplate level (meaning...the worker-bees, not the policy makers) is that women, in groups for long periods of time, tend to synchronize "cycles". The Powers That Be are (supposedly) worried about what would happen with a nuclear submarine with 150 cranky women aboard, and possibly nuclear missles.....once a month, a belligerent nation disappears in a radioactive cloud....

Doubt that's true, or all of the story, but the rumor of an all-female crew is as old as the rumor of females on subs. Nobody I've talked to has had any problems with the idea of an all-female crew, and we do enjoy the laugh at the thought of missiles popping out of the ocean at certain times of the month...

 

[Clay_Allison]

They should just have an all women crew. Might be an interesting thing to try out. I say this because I personally do not have a problem with women on submarines. I think women could do the job just as good as men could. I however do not think that women and men can co-exist on a submarine without major problems ranging from hostility, sex, and the fact that there just is no room to have separate living and hygiene spaces in the cramped confines of a submarine.

The problem is, you need an experienced submarine crew in place to train new crew members. New sailors have to pass qualifications on a large number of tasks and watch stations. You don't put some brand new crew on board a sub, complete with chiefs and officers, with NOBODY qualified. On a submarine there is no room for extra personnel, that means that you need to be able to do your job and any number of others, because there are no specialized backups. That means that the sub can only integrate a certain amount of new crew at a time, and that's with experienced Chiefs, First Classes, and officers.

There is NO RATIONAL PURPOSE in having a female on a submarine. There is no advantage to the military in doing that.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The problem is, you need an experienced submarine crew in place to train new crew members. New sailors have to pass qualifications on a large number of tasks and watch stations. You don't put some brand new crew on board a sub, complete with chiefs and officers, with NOBODY qualified. On a submarine there is no room for extra personnel, that means that you need to be able to do your job and any number of others, because there are no specialized backups. That means that the sub can only integrate a certain amount of new crew at a time, and that's with experienced Chiefs, First Classes, and officers.

There is NO RATIONAL PURPOSE in having a female on a submarine. There is no advantage to the military in doing that.

I hear you and agree with you.

 

[renrich]

You can bet your bottom dollar that if the current administration stays in power along with the current congress mix, there will be women on subs and eventually women in the combat arms of the Army.

 

[Clay_Allison]

You can bet your bottom dollar that if the current administration stays in power along with the current congress mix, there will be women on subs and eventually women in the combat arms of the Army.

they may be stupid but they can't do magic. Admiral Donald and every other Navy Admiral will tell them that they'll be glad to as long as a new submarine is built that makes it possible. As it is, not going to happen. They just physically have no place to put them.

 

[lesofprimus]

They just physically have no place to put them.

Actually Clay, there is, and its the one place that would never work:

Hot bunking with male shipmates....

 

[Maestro]

I do remember hearing about a female sailor in the Canadian navy filing a lawsuit against the Canadian Forces a few years back. She was serving on a traditional surface ship and said she had been a victim of sexual abuses by male sailors (story doesn't tell if it was a simple assault (i.e. grabbing a boob) or a rape).

And as I said, it was on a surface ship, where there is a lot of room compared to a submarine.

Is it possible that a single girl serving on a ship with hundreds of men full of testosterone can easily become a victim of sexual abuses ? Hell, yes. (Though it does not in any shape or form excuse the scumbags doing such things.)

Would the same situation in a thighter vessel lead to more accidental sexual assaults ? (I.E. Trying to fix a part on an engine and (whoops) touch the woman's chest/ass with your elbow, making her go cry "rape" to the Admiralty.) I'm afraid so.

My personnal advice is keep them away from the subs.

 

[Clay_Allison]

You know, it's not the rape/assault/whatever, you'd have to worry about. Sub crews work 18+ hours a day underway, they don't have time. It's the pressure of dealing with the constant mix of adrenaline and fatigue of sub life and then have to deal with the absurd drama that women would create.

Women already are a huge distraction to the Navy. They drop out way way way more (pregnancy, threatening suicide, whatever to get out), they jump the chain of command and run to the Captain at the slightest thing whenever they want attention. As individuals some female sailors are fine, but as a group they do nothing but damage the ability of the Navy to run smoothly without having to referee everyone's interpersonal conduct down to what jokes they tell.

My brother knew a guy in training who was thrown out of the military for telling a dirty joke (he got to the punch line just as a female walked into the room) she dropped out later in training. The girl got another guy thrown out for breaking up with her (basically) and then eventually dropped out herself. The Navy lost two perfectly good nukes because they couldn't say no to a person who did nothing but waste their resources and quit.

It really is typical, they demand "equality" then demand special treatment.

 

[Messy1]

Just too tight of quarters, no personal space which has been said. too many what ifs that could happen. I think some men/woman could handle it, but it only takes one bad apple to ruin the load.

 

[109ROAMING]

It really is typical, they demand "equality" then demand special treatment.

Ain't that the truth

 

[vikingBerserker]

I have to admit, I am surprised:

Navy says it is ready to end ban on women in submarines - CNN.com



Washington (CNN) -- Secretary of Defense Robert Gates has notified Congress of plans to allow women to serve aboard submarines, a Defense Department official said Tuesday.

Letters of intent were sent Monday to Congress, which has requested briefings on the matter, said the official, who asked not to be identified. There will be no vote on the matter in Congress.

The change was recommended by the chief of naval operations and the secretary of the Navy in addition to Gates, the official said, adding that there was no opposition to the move among Navy leaders.

A phased approach is being considered under which officers -- who already have separate living quarters -- would be the first to go co-ed, followed by crews, with the women bunking together, the official said. Crew space would have to be modified prior to that happening, the official added.

The submarines expected to carry women initially would be the larger ones -- nuclear-power, missile-carrying submarines known as SSBN and SSGN, the official said.

Women joined the crews of the Navy's surface ships in 1993, but officials had previously cited limited privacy and the cost of reconfiguring the vessels in arguing against their joining sub crews.

Last September, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead described himself as "very comfortable addressing integrating women into the submarine force."

"Accommodations are a factor, but not insurmountable," he said.

 

[Njaco]

Well, thats the end of the seamen jokes.

 

[B-17engineer]

hahahaha Chris

Like from Austin Power's "Want to ride my sub, it's long and hard and full of seamen."

 

[Clay_Allison]

Well, the Navy has driven the sub fleet far enough into the ground, they might as well finish it off.

 

[Catch22]

While I can certainly see the issues that are brought up and while they are understandable, I do not think it will be nearly as bad as people are saying. There's no reason women shouldn't be allowed to serve in any capacity in the military, besides perhaps old prejudices. And that extends past the people making the decisions, and to the male crew members as well. People need to realize here (here being crewmembers etc) that women are equal to men and there's no reason they can't or shouldn't serve in any capacity. And yes, I understand that there may be higher dropout rates due to pregnancy etc, but really, I don't think it's fair to lump women into one large group that is apparently detrimental to the group as a whole with a few individuals being fine, but should be considered as a group to be fine, but with certain individuals causing problems. Having said that, it's give and take, so if women want to serve anywhere, and want equality (which I believe is very deserved), they need to actually get it, instead of special considerations. I'm not trying to seem hostile here or anything, so I apologize if that's how I come across!

 

[Clay_Allison]

That's great when you're dealing with individuals, or theories. In real life, submarines are a cramped, high-stress environment where tempers flare and screamed profanity and sometimes physical conflicts go on. Guys are in there working 18 hours with extreme discomfort and no breaks and they deal with their issues internally. On a submarine the guy next to you is a guy who you can have a fistfight with one day and count on to work like a madman right next to you the next day. No amount of equality is going to make up for the fact that the sense of teamwork and mutual trust aboard the submarine is going to be destroyed by the officers getting involved in matters that never went above the Chief before.

Women in the Navy already jump the chain of command over everything from dirty jokes to relationship issues and introducing a dynamic of distrust to an environment where you have to trust your co-workers will be a disaster.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Okay one last time...

Whats long, hard full of semen and likes to go into deep dark places?

 

[ccheese]

The "powers that be" in the US Navy seems to think it will work on the larger subs. I rode the Tullibee for three days, and
you could not put a female anywhere on that sub, it was just too small. According to the most recent news, the 2010
Grads from the Naval Academy will be the first to serve on a sub........ officers, of course !

Charles