Questions about the Me-262

[syscom3]

Hi Syscom,

>As for the -262 engines, when was it being produced in quantity and considered reliable enough for operations?

Did you ever read anything about the Me 262 being grounded for lack of engines? This seems to be a popular assumption, but I haven't found any source to confirm it.

In my opinion, many writers confuse short engine life with poor reliability or non-operability. You can fly operations just fine with a short engine life, it's just that the engine won't last long before having to be replaced.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

There is an issue of when the engines were being produced in quantity that were acceptable for use.

While having a few hand built engines available early on looks good from an aviation enthusiasts point of view, it isn't exactly something that makes the aircraft operational.

I have heard so much about the -262 being capable for fighter ops early in 1944, that I am asking these questions, as they are nuances that have to be explained.

My perspective is that the -262 had an airframe ready for production early on, but there were engine issues that slowed the program down until the end of summer 1944.

Erich ..... another question for you. Why did it take until the middle of March 1945 that the LW finally put a whole group of them into the air at one time? Did it really take that amount of time to work out the tactics?

 

[syscom3]

Hi Syscom,

>As for the -262 engines, when was it being produced in quantity and considered reliable enough for operations?

Did you ever read anything about the Me 262 being grounded for lack of engines? This seems to be a popular assumption, but I haven't found any source to confirm it.

In my opinion, many writers confuse short engine life with poor reliability or non-operability. You can fly operations just fine with a short engine life, it's just that the engine won't last long before having to be replaced.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

There is an issue of when the engines were being produced in quantity that were acceptable for use.

While having a few hand built engines available early on looks good from an aviation enthusiasts point of view, it isn't exactly something that makes the aircraft operational.

I have heard so much about the -262 being capable for ops early in 1944, that I am asking these questions, as they are nuances that have to be explained.

 

[Erich]

dissposition of elements of the Jet staffeln. JG 7 is just a narrow example, the bomber units and recon had to be trained up knowing full well that the later along with bomber would be in a struggle with Allied fighters at any time on any mission. JG 300 was going to be equipped with the jet or so they thought in the future

think there needs to be more research on the Erpo-test kommando(s) in operation test evaluation of the 262 and why it was not ready or released. It is obvious that their own findings were not suitable to the high command to release the jet any earlier than what was seen

 

[drgondog]

Bill,

Just like loss records undoubtedly have gone missing, so have the records of pilot claims. Remember that by late 44 many of the kills scored by the LW were never confirmed by the OKL, which undoubtedly is the reason behind why many Allied a/c are listed as missing, there being no possibility to cross reference the details with LW records of Allied a/c claimed shot down.

But Soren - for the ones Confirmed by OKL as recorded in Woods tables, there is a 70-80% 'over award' to LW pilots when compared to actual 8th AF losses. There isn't a problem with 'missing' or 'unaccounted for' 8th AF losses - just some 'unexplained or unknown' causes.

Missing LW pilot claims would just make the overclaiming worse.

As for my sources, I didn't directly cross reference with USAAF or RAF loss records, however I took into account overstatement of kills. Far more than 600 a/c were claimed shot down by the Me-262.

Then you are largely assuming in contrast to gathering facts and unknowns - then separating the two categories into 'known' vs 'speculation', aren't you?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Does any one have info on what the individual units "claimed?" As stated earlier JV 44 - 50 claims, I show JG 7 with 200.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Syscom,

>I have heard so much about the -262 being capable for fighter ops early in 1944, that I am asking these questions, as they are nuances that have to be explained.

With regard to engine reliability, you're not asking a question but actually presenting speculation lacking a source, and then asking for data to contradict it.

That's a good way to get a discussion going, but it's a bit dangerous with regard to the conclusions casual readers might make.

I'm not aware of any evidence suggesting that the teething troubles of the Jumo 004B were bad enough to have more than a marginal effect on operations.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Micdrow]

Production figures from schiffers book, Me262 developement, testing and production

 

[Erich]

Joe

yes in a form and a single German source from the 1960's/1970's .......... jet kills : 760. note this figure has been published elsewhere in the more present day and age.

obviously not at all correct. will try and dig out just what units did what.

JV 44 is given 50 and so is 10./NJG 11 and that is not correct though.

give me some time unless some-one else posts something of interest on this

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I'm interested Erich - as always you're a wealth of information

 

[Timppa]

I have heard so much about the -262 being capable for fighter ops early in 1944, that I am asking these questions, as they are nuances that have to be explained.

Quoting a summary of an old Alfred Price's article of the Me262 in Air International Magazine:

"Several postwar writers have censured Luftwaffe leaders for failing to get the Me262 into production early enough. Yet, if anything, production of the aircraft was initiated too early with the result that Me262 airframes were starting to come off the assembly lines before them were ready to enter mass production. Nor did Adolf Hitler's edict regarding the initial use of the Me262 as a fighter-bomber cause appreciable delay in the type's operational introduction in the fighter role.

The most important factor constraining the employment of the Me262 in operational service was the extremely short running life of the Jumo 004 power unit. Despite the valiant and imaginative efforts of the Junkers engineers, by the spring of 1945 the state of development of the Jumo 004 had not reached the point where it could be regarded as a fully reliable unit. As a result the Me262 was never able to fulfil its original promise."

 

[KrazyKraut]

What exactly made the airframes coming out of factories "not ready for mass-production"?

 

[Njaco]

I don't think the engines were ready at the same time so therefore the frames were slowed, and yada,yada, like dominoes. I belive that is what was meant.

 

[KrazyKraut]

Yeah I agree, the wording just seemed odd.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Timppa,

>Nor did Adolf Hitler's edict regarding the initial use of the Me262 as a fighter-bomber cause appreciable delay in the type's operational introduction in the fighter role.

Since I think rather highly of Price's work, I used to follow him in that regard until I had a look at the actual jet fighter strengths. The first fighter bomber unit received Me 262 aircraft in 6/1944, while JG 7 predecessor Kommando Nowotny received their first Me 262s in 9/1944. That's the delay Hitler's order is responsible for.

>Despite the valiant and imaginative efforts of the Junkers engineers, by the spring of 1945 the state of development of the Jumo 004 had not reached the point where it could be regarded as a fully reliable unit.

Probably true, but the question is - what was the operational impact of this lack of reliability? A 25 hour lifetime engine can still yield 16 flights of 1.5 hours each, and if half of these are flown in combat, you get 8 combat sorties per set of engines. About 6000 Jumo 004 engines were built during WW2, so we can approximate very roughly that there were two sets of Jumo 004 engines available for each of the ca. 1400 Me 262 fighters produced.

This doesn't look like the engines were a bottleneck that could have hampered Me 262 combat operations ...

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[SoD Stitch]

Quoting a summary of an old Alfred Price's article of the Me262 in Air International Magazine:

"Several postwar writers have censured Luftwaffe leaders for failing to get the Me262 into production early enough. Yet, if anything, production of the aircraft was initiated too early with the result that Me262 airframes were starting to come off the assembly lines before them were ready to enter mass production. Nor did Adolf Hitler's edict regarding the initial use of the Me262 as a fighter-bomber cause appreciable delay in the type's operational introduction in the fighter role.

The most important factor constraining the employment of the Me262 in operational service was the extremely short running life of the Jumo 004 power unit. Despite the valiant and imaginative efforts of the Junkers engineers, by the spring of 1945 the state of development of the Jumo 004 had not reached the point where it could be regarded as a fully reliable unit. As a result the Me262 was never able to fulfil its original promise."

I have read essentially the same thing in Mr. Price's book, "Fighter Aircraft (Combat Development in World War II)". Also, development of the 004 was "frozen" early in it's development (late '43, I believe) in order to facilitate rapid production of the engine, so there were virtually no improvements in the 004 between 1943 and 1945; in fact, if anything, due to the decline in the quality of materiel affecting all aspects of the German manfacturing industry, the lifespan of the 004 actually decreased, instead of increased, as the War went on. By War's end, the BMW 003 was probably a more reliable powerplant than the 004 due to it's longer gestation period.

 

[kool kitty89]

That is incorrect on the engine life issue, the 004B may have been more or less "frozen" but by the time of the 004B-2's introduction service life had already improved: while the B-1 (with uncooled turbine blades) fell far short of the official 25 hour interval the B-2 came much closer to this, and the B-4 further improved this.

In addition there is are the 004D and similar 004E to consider. They were improved considerably (with TBO ~60 hours) and with improved combustion chambers giving significantly improved feul economy and thrust. Additionally other alterations eliminated the vibration problems at higher RPM allowing the 8,700 rpm limit to be removed and allowing nominal thrust (9,000 rpm) of 930 kp (2,049 lbf) and 1,050 kp (2,313 lbf) at 10,000 rpm. The 004E had an improved exhaust that improved altitude performance, it also optionally featured an afterburner. Improved fuel control also increased reliability, reduced the risk of damage durring spool-ups and reduced the possibility of flame-outs.

The 004D had entered production just before the war's end and the 004E was ready to enter production.

 

[syscom3]

Ok, so are these true statements:

1) Regardless of Hitlers meddling, the airframes were not put into quantity production untill May/June 1944. And they would have been unavailable untill then due to airframe development. [in other words.... even if Hitler had not meddled, it was still no use in building them in quantity in early 1944 due to factors beyond anyone's control]

2) The engine was available for use (although with a short lifetime) throughout the first 1/2 of 1944, and all that was needed were airframes.

 

[Erich]

sys the engines had a short life .....period something the ground techs could never get worked out unless a totally new system approach was to be had and this was destined into the new streamlined 262 variants for 1946

Jope from one source and I think I just may as well go on a quest and look at each member of JG 7's pilot roster which is enormous later on

Stab with III./JG 7 425
I./JG 7 had 80 kills
II./JG 7 never had their own jets and did not operate no matter what any book states otherwise
III./EJG 2 had 25 kills
JV 44 had 56 kills
Kommando Nowotny had 35 kills possibly up to 50
10./NJG 11 has been given anywhere from 45 to 50, maybe even more
I./KG (J) 51 had 5 kills
I./KG (J) 54 had 50 kills
Ekdo 262 had 25 kills
Ekdo Lechfeld had 3 or more kills

the above position is that JG 7 had over 500 kills and my personal opinion is that it may of had 200-250 maximum.

 

[drgondog]

What exactly made the airframes coming out of factories "not ready for mass-production"?

A flurry of Engineering Change Orders due to Design changes required to solve problems encountered in prototypes for which new tooling had to be made (or make them as piece parts/cutomized) would be one possible reason.

You could make the decision to not make those changes and use existing tools, then send field mods out to retrofit to a production block number..that might happen if it was not a flight safety issue.

Just a couple of possibilities

 

[kool kitty89]

Also, in terms of the hinderance of Hitler's order that it be used as a bomber meant that (while delay in introduction as a fighter was only moderately delayed) there were far less fighter versions available (~1/4) than would have been had the fighter-bomber model not been produced. (possibly moreso given that this requirement slowed development as a whole somewhat as well)