The best truck of WWII?

[Juha]

As I already wrote in my message #4, German themselves noted that LL Studebakers plough on through mud when German trucks got struck into it during winter 1943/44 in Ukraina. Probably most German trucks in question were 4x2 trucks, as most of them were anyway but units in question 3., 13., etc PzDivs were first class units and probably had best available equipment.

Soren
Quote:" Safe perhaps from the Russian winter were every gas powered vehicle ground to a halt."

Where you got that idea? I have driven gasoline run cars here in Finland on winters 35 years, and winters are or at least were very harsh here, only once I had a problem because of cold, when I parked a car, a French made, in a very windy place over a very cold weekend. That was in 70s and the car was rather old. I know that batteries , engine oils and lubricants were then better than in 40s but still. And during Winter War (winter 39-40 which was exceptional cold) Finnish could use their lorries/trucks and cars without unduly difficulties over the front from 25 km NW of Leningrad to over 1000 km North of Leningrad. One must only know a few tricks, which were same to diesel and gasoline engine vehicles, how to act during very cold periods.

Quote:" The problem is that the GMC CCKW never got the chance to try an environment as tough as that of the Russian winter, where every gas powered vehicle ground to a halt."

But Studebaker made 2½ ton trucks were there, very many of them, just across frontline, so wholly meaningless argument.

Juha

 

[Lucky13]

Talking about the Finska Vinterkriget, have you any idea what trucks the Swedes used on the Petsamo Trafiken? Was it Volvos...

Hang on, found my dads book about it, after he told me where it was...

Here it says that the Swedish Airforce had studied the traffic and concluded in secret document that THE best trucks for the summer and winter traffic was either the Volvo L90 or L94 and Scania-Vabis.
The Volvos having a straight Volvo or Hesselman six on 90hp.
Ford and Chevrolet were NOT recommended!

 

[renrich]

I had a turbo charged diesel, a Mercedes, that I used in Crested Butte for a while, in the winter. The low temp record for the continental US used to be from near there, minus 64 degrees, and 35 to 40 degrees below is normal. I found that operation of the diesel was not nearly as trouble free as a gasoline engine. Hard to start, very low power until up to operating temp and the engine needed to be left running as much as possible rather than cut off when not being used. It was kept in a garage at night and I had a long, perhaps quarter mile, driveway with a steep grade up to the highway. This was at about 8000 feet above SL. Once the engine was warmed up, perhaps three minutes, where there was enough power to back out of the garage, I proceeded up the driveway which was relatively flat until approaching the highway where the grade was about ten per cent. Attacking that ten per cent grade onto a highway where cars were moving at 55 mph, I had to make sure there was no traffic in sight either way, because I could not get but about 1000 RPM out of that diesel and getting up the grade was a slow proposition. Once I reached the highway which was flat, I poured on the coal and we gradually edged up to 2000 RPM, where the turbo charger cut in and then, relatively speaking, I had power and away we would go. It was really humorous. To me, diesels, high altitudes and sub zero temps don't mix well. Of course, this was in the early 80s and improvements must have been made.

 

[Soren]

As I already wrote in my message #4, German themselves noted that LL Studebakers plough on through mud when German trucks got struck into it during winter 1943/44 in Ukraina. Probably most German trucks in question were 4x2 trucks, as most of them were anyway but units in question 3., 13., etc PzDivs were first class units and probably had best available equipment.

A 6x6 truck will do better in mud than a 4x2, there's no doubt about that, it's a matter of traction. But the Germans employed 4x4 6x6 trucks as-well. So you most have a selective memory Juha, cause if a Studebaker could get through then I know a lot of German trucks could too. So lets cut the bias Juha.

Soren
Quote:" Safe perhaps from the Russian winter were every gas powered vehicle ground to a halt."

Where you got that idea? I have driven gasoline run cars here in Finland on winters 35 years, and winters are or at least were very harsh here, only once I had a problem because of cold, when I parked a car, a French made, in a very windy place over a very cold weekend. That was in 70s and the car was rather old. I know that batteries , engine oils and lubricants were then better than in 40s but still. And during Winter War (winter 39-40 which was exceptional cold) Finnish could use their lorries/trucks and cars without unduly difficulties over the front from 25 km NW of Leningrad to over 1000 km North of Leningrad. One must only know a few tricks, which were same to diesel and gasoline engine vehicles, how to act during very cold periods.

Juha read about it, the German vehicles froze down, only the Russian tanks could move around reliable because of their diesel engines. The Germans had to keep their engines running, cause if they turned them off they might not get them started again. A diesel doesn't have that problem, it features reheating glow pipes.

Quote:" The problem is that the GMC CCKW never got the chance to try an environment as tough as that of the Russian winter, where every gas powered vehicle ground to a halt."

But Studebaker made 2½ ton trucks were there, very many of them, just across frontline, so wholly meaningless argument.

Juha

I'd really like to see any German claiming that the Studebaker ploughed through where German trucks couldn't, and I'd like to see how anyone could ever backup such a statement.

If its a matter of the guy in question was talking about 4x2 trucks vs a 6x6 truck, well then that explains it, otherwise it's quite simply hogwash.

 

[Soren]

At least 75% of Opel Blitz's were 4x2, versus the almost 100% of the GMC 6x6. Just thinking out loud, but would that not indicate better traction?

Problem with that theory is that the Germans had plenty of 4x4 6x6 trucks as-well.

There is a reason why the Germans had to use so many half tracks.

And what reason would that be ?

The reason that the Germans used so many halftracks is simply because they are way superior to ANY truck when it comes to negotiating through any form of landscape.

 

[Juha]

Soren
Quote:" But the Germans employed 4x4 6x6 trucks as-well. So you most have a selective memory Juha, cause if a Studebaker could get through then I know a lot of German trucks could too. So lets cut the bias Juha."

First of all, it is You who is extraordinary biased. And once again, Germany's problem was that vast bulk of its trucks used in first line combat formations were 4x2 and so didn't cope with muddy enviroments. There were lots more Studebakers than those German trucks which could cope thaw period in Ukraina.

On winter use of gasoline engined trucks, Finns managed use them OK, vast majority of them were US made civil trucks and if you bothered to look from a map where Finland and think, You should understand that gasoline engined trucks could work well in very could climate. If German trucks froze down, the problem was with those trucks and/or with their drivers. Low temperature is very hard to batteries, with flat battery how you use reheating glow pipes. And definitely you seemed to know nothing on real winter vehicle maintenance.

Quote:" I'd really like to see any German claiming that the Studebaker ploughed through where German trucks couldn't, and I'd like to see how anyone could ever backup such a statement."

Again, Heer's problem was that so few of its trucks were 4x4 or 6x6, and its mobility on thaw periods suffered massively on that, on the other hand US automobile industry turned out hundred of thousands 2½ ton trucks which could cope in those environments. They designed a truck which had good cross-country capabilities and which was also possible to really mass-produce.

I didn't find the source but E. Ziemke in his Stalingrad to Berlin on pp 241-42 say the same on LL trucks vs German trucks in more general way.

So I bothered to dig out a source, would you give your source, if you have any, to your strange claim on Zitadelle losses which you gave in "Tank commanders, who was best?" –tread in your message #21, I mean exact source(s) not like Kirosheev others. And of course the source(s) to your claim that "the Russian winter were every gas powered vehicle ground to a halt."

Juha

 

[pbfoot]

If you ever visit an extremely cold place one of the things you'll notice is that people will not shut down diesels and let them get cold because they are harder to start in cold . Now realize it probably takes a few hours for the engine to cool after being warm but if a diesel gets really cold it might need ether to start

 

[vikingBerserker]

Problem with that theory is that the Germans had plenty of 4x4 6x6 trucks as-well.

The arguement I believe you were making was that the Opel Blitz was just as good as the Duece and a Half. The Opel Blitz was not 6x6, the Duece was.

The only 6x6 I know of that the Germans used were the Czech Tatras - where there others?

And what reason would that be ?

The reason that the Germans used so many halftracks is simply because they are way superior to ANY truck when it comes to negotiating through any form of landscape.

I can quote "The Encyclopedia of Weapons of World War II", page 75:

"The frist winter of the war in the USSR (1941-2) demonstrated to the German army that most of its wheeled transport was completely unable to deal with the dreadful muddy conditions..."

The Russian in their Dueces did not appear to have this problem.

Diesel also gels in extreme cold, so I'm not sure of the advantage they would have over petrol in the extreme cold.

 

[vikingBerserker]

Juha read about it, the German vehicles froze down, only the Russian tanks could move around reliable because of their diesel engines. The Germans had to keep their engines running, cause if they turned them off they might not get them started again. A diesel doesn't have that problem, it features reheating glow pipes.

In post #133 you stated:

"Another truck we forgot is the German Enheits Diesel truck, a 80 hp Diesel truck which did marvelously on the Eastern front, esp. during the winter months where it was one of the few machines running around reliably."


Huh?

 

[syscom3]

Soren, half tracks while superior for cross country travel, have distinct disadvantages for road travel.

The GMC and Studebaker 6x6's worked very well on road (and unimproved roads) which gave the allies a tremendous logistical capability.

They were also "good enough" off road to be extremely usefull.

 

[Juha]

Very true Pbfoot.
I haven't personally drive a diesel vehicle, at least I don't recall. But during my military service during one winter manoeuvres a diesel 4x4 agricultural tractor with trailer and its driver were attached into my squad. The weather happened to be very cold for SE Finland c. -30deg C at coldest and the driver had to be awakened at least a couple times during a night to run the diesel 20-30min so that the engine would not got too cold.

While gasoline engine cars use same gasoline around year here at least for a couple last decades they have sold special winter-grade diesel oil during winters because the regular diesel oil tended to congeal, if that is the right term, in winter temperatures and so makes life difficult to diesel engines. Because the winter-grade diesel oil might begin evaporate, again maybe not the right term, at summer temperatures they sell it only during winters.

Juha

 

[renrich]

Juha, good points and the same as I have tried to make. Diesels are a lot of trouble in cold temps and I speak from personal experience.

 

[vikingBerserker]

A-Fricken-Men!!!

 

[Soren]

Funny how the Russians kept their Diesel engined tanks running while the German gasoline engined tanks froze down. Answer is the reheaters used in Soviet tanks, and the lack of fuel addictives given to the German army as they thought the war would be over before winter.

Onwards;

The Einheits Diesel is a 80 hp 6x6 Diesel truck, widely used by the Wehrmacht during WW2, so it should do better in muddy terrain than the Deuce a half.

But this was far from the only truck that the Germans used on large scale, there were also for example the following:

Mercedes Benz L4500A, 112 hp, 4x4, Diesel. (?)
Büssing NAG 500A, 105 hp, 4x4, Diesel. (14,813 built)
Klücker Deutz A330, 80 hp, 4x4, Diesel. (~5,900 built)
Opel Blitz 6700A, 78 hp, 4x4, Gasoline. (24,981 built)

As for the Opel Blitz, the majority were 4x2's, however one third were 4x4's. So the traction of the Opel Blitz was, while maybe very slightly less than the GMC CCKW, still very good. But to make amends for that the Opel Blitz has a higher carrying capabillity than the GMC CCKW.

That is why I say one can't be said to be better than the other.

 

[Soren]

This is a pretty good picture of a Klücker Deutz A330 truck displaying its' excellent off-road capabilities:

 

[drgondog]

I see deciduous trees as opposed to coniferous and the they would be the latter in the Yukon Alaska area I think

Pb - I was waxing a little poetic on the mud. Of course you are right on the differences!

 

[syscom3]

This is a pretty good picture of a Klücker Deutz A330 truck displaying its' excellent off-road capabilities:

Do all the hoods on the German trucks pop open when the going gets rough?

 

[Soren]

Syscom, are you serious ? Have you nothing else to say ? Something intelligent perhaps ?

The hood is left open, it hasn't popped open, you can even see the rod hinge it is resting on.

 

[syscom3]

So the engine has failed?

 

[Soren]

Christ syscom

But no, I don't think that's likly since it's hurling itself over obstacles on the picture