9/11 Coincidences?

[FLYBOYJ]

I knew 5 people who died at the WTC. Jayson Dahl was a friend of my father in law (pilot flight 93) I also know DOZENS of people involved in the salvage and clean-up. There is no doubt that there were Boeing aircraft salvaged at both crash sites. There were parts 100% identified by outside agencies to confirm and dispel any conspiracy theories.

Just for the record, when I had about 300 hours flight time I went into a 737 full motion simulator and within 30 minutes I was taking off and landing the aircraft (not to practical test standards,but I was doing it). No doubt in my mind that someone with 20 or 30 hours could do the same and crash it into a building.

911 conspiracy theories are pure nonsense and are just s smokescreen to align ignorance with political and social biases, IMO.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

My 20 Hungarian forint: 9/11 was not what it was made out to be at all.

The Pentagon certainly wasn't hit by an airliner at least, and reinforced towers that size falling so fast (and perfectly!) without additional assisitance is highly suspect.
Who had how much hand in each part I don't even want to speculate, but I don't buy it.

I sense rather a Titan afraid of losing it's grip on power, especially with the rise of the Arab and Chinese states, and Europe trying to strengthen itself.

Forint = foreign intelligence? 20 Hungarian = is that 20 hungarians or a unit of the Hungarian mlitary?

Are you (or, in your mind, others) suggesting something else occurred other than what has been portrayed as:

1. 20 Islamic terrorists hijaking 4 airliners with mass-destructive, suicidal intent?
2. Two fuel filled airliners crashing into the WTC and bringing it down?
3. One fuel filled airliner crashing into the Pentagon making a substantial hole in the outer wall and wreaking mass destuction in the interior?
4. One slightly less than fuel filled airliner being hijaked and passangers rising against the captors to prevent the carrying out of any plan?

Or are you perhaps agreeing with some or all of the above but harboring a suspician that the US government or some other non-islamist, non-arab agency was complicit in the events most of us witnessed on TV (either live or in rebroadcast) and many of us witnessed in person?

If you feel the forum enviroment is too potentially hostile to say publically what you've come to believe, we can go to a private ms.

Anyone who saw the towers fall is likely to have asked that question at some point. How did they fall in the way they did? That's an interesting and legitimate question without any suggestion of a motivating conspiracy. If you investigate and find an answer, great. Mystery solved and end of story. The next step, to assume the existence of a conspiracy, becomes far more difficult and burdensome to the claiment, persistence in the belief may indicate a totally unrelated need on their part to reject what evidence investigation has provided.

If there is no satisfactory explanation, then conspiracy theories become fair game. I don't know how internationally widespread was the US post event analysis. There was a very significant and public effort made to understand what happened and it exists on the web to this day, I believe. For example:

NOVA:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPqxJpykW00

NOVA is typically regarded as a gold standard for accurate reporting of scientific based inquiry.

A quick look at UTUBE shows many other pro and counter videos. I haven't gone through them all but I suspect many here have and can provide their own list of validating information.

I can only point to the Pearl Harbor experience as an example of a similar national trauma with global implications and is still troubled by allegations of conspiracy. Most of these allegations have been addressed and satisfactory answers obtained. The general story: the Japanese military attacked the US without a violent provocation or forewarning on December 7, 1941 seems to stand up pretty well.

The problem I have with any givernment conspiracy theory is that it assumes a governmental competence that my experience says doesn't exist. It strikes me as far more likely that 20 dedicated terrorists could hatch this plot and be at least partially successful in its execution.

Matt said it all for me: Occam's razor.

I don't often see my country as a titan. More often perhaps as a undisciplined child without a motivation to focus its energy, especially if it tried to pull off this act. Look at the state this country is in right now. It seems far removed from any claim to titanhood.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I also know someone who worked right near the Pentagon. He confirmed it for me that it was plane, as he was near it that day. So much for the theory that a plane did not hit the Pentagon...

 

[A4K]

I'm very sorry for your friends Joe, and everyone else who suffered in this tragedy (because that is what it was), but I think that's exactly what we're talking about here - manipulation through emotional ties to victims, and the big built-in Americanism: Patriotism.
Think about it - would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm? - Most wouldn't have cared I dare say, there almost certainly would NOT have been a 'war against terrorism' over it.


There very likely was wreckage of atleast one aircraft at the WTC sites (the question remaining which, and why no wingtip vortices?), but I strongly doubt these were the single cause of the towers'collapse. If a reinforced granite structure is strong enough to reduced an aircraft's wing to scrap without leaving a hole, then it's not going to tumble down so fast and cleanly as these did.
- And no airliner parts to be found at the Pentagon site I'll bet - that little manoeuvre more likely took care of the paperwork.
Too many suspicious 'accidents' to eyewitnesses contradicting the 'official' explanation too (including one of the first firemen on the scene who reported finding a body in a cupboard near the basement)..etc, etc

Just too fishy the whole deal IMO.

(Clashed posts:

'Crow: put it this way - more inclined to agree against than with the official reason, based on what I've read, BUT that's JUST MY OPINION.
You can believe what you want, but I bet you neither of us know the truth.
As for the 'Foreign Intelligence' comment... this is not a personal bitch slap contest and there was no call for that.

Chris: I don't doubt you mate, but my opinion is based on what I've seen and read.
The footage available on the net dosen't show anything to confirm an aircraft hit (unless it was a missile as some people suggest), and the strange anomolies of the size of the hole, the shape, the way the section collapsed so clean and squarely, no burn marks or damage to adjacent objects,and the fact that the area hit had been 'under renovation, thus devoid of personnel' is are incredibly strange to say the least.

 

[pbfoot]

Its good to know National Enquirer has a Hungarian version

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm? - Most wouldn't have cared I dare say, there almost certainly would NOT have been a 'war against terrorism' over it."

Johnannesburg and Stockholm are not the capital of CAPITALISM -- Wall Street, New York is. Where else could the terrorists be sure to kill Americans, Brits, Canadians, Israelis, etc. etc... ?

"... it's not going to tumble down so fast and cleanly as these did" To answer that .... no architect will ever build skyscrapers like the WTT's again - absolutely flawed design. The granite is mere veneer - and steel loses strength at the temperatures that jet fuel burns. No mystery to the pancake collapse.

Some people have either too much imagination or too much time.

MM

 

[A4K]

Some people have either too much imagination or too much time.

MM

No need to get personal mate. Don't you have different opinions in Canada?

 

[pbfoot]

No need to get personal mate. Don't you have different opinions in Canada?

Certainly do but evidence is evidence , videos are certainly a good way to start , as Oldcrow suggested watch the documentary he suggested I believe you'll find it enlightning . I just think its silly to think otherwise . How in hell would it be possible to keep such a thing under wraps I'm sure if there was a conspiracy it would be ne'er impossible to keep it under wraps particularly with the political enviroment in the States. If you are so inclined to believe otherwise I can introduce you to a guy that claims 3 people were shot as they attempted to blow up Peace Bridge on 9/11

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Chris: I don't doubt you mate, but my opinion is based on what I've seen and read.
The footage available on the net dosen't show anything to confirm an aircraft hit (unless it was a missile as some people suggest), and the strange anomolies of the size of the hole, the shape, the way the section collapsed so clean and squarely, no burn marks or damage to adjacent objects,and the fact that the area hit had been 'under renovation, thus devoid of personnel' is are incredibly strange to say the least.

I will believe someone who was there on the ground, before I believe hogwash written by someone who was not there.

Not trying to insult you, so please don't take it that way. I will however believe people that were there, and my heart, before I believe crap, and that is what I believe it is. Especially since those things contradict what people say that were there.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... No need to get personal mate"

If the shoe fits ....

MM

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Sorry A4K - if you actually saw both sites and the people who were there before and after the attacks there is more to enough evidence to support the reported events. I could go into everything to why the towers fell to the side of the holes at the pentagon and the whole thing is explainable. I even know one of the F-16 pilots who was in the air (without armament) who was accused of shooting down the aircraft at the pentagon.

Popular mechanics magazine did a great job debunking most of this nonsense.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Think about it - would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm?

Presented with the same evidence and what I know about commwercial airliners and their operations, the same opinion.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

The big built-in Americanism: Patriotism. Think about it - would people have the same opinion of this if it had happened in Johannesburg, or Stockholm? - Most wouldn't have cared I dare say, there almost certainly would NOT have been a 'war against terrorism' over it.

What if South Africa or Sweden possessed the same capability? You may be right, but I have to wonder if any nation with the ability to strike back at Al Quaeda would not have done so. Power is both currupting and enabling. It seems to me that's a burden the US lives with but is rarely acknowledged.

As for the 'Foreign Intelligence' comment... this is not a personal bitch slap contest and there was no call for that.

A4K, color me honestly confused and perhaps dim. I was simply trying to say "I didn't understand your post." I think on that account I remain a bit confused and probably should have just said that outright. My bad. The last thing I meant to suggest was any sort of personal bitch slap My most sincere apologies for the miscommunication. the hope was to have an open dialogue without judgement where what we think we know can be compared to our sources. My hope was that opening the window will clarify and perhaps mitigate disharmony and misunderstanding. I am puzzled by the wide spread disbelief and the readiness to assume what to me at least appears to be an unlikely hypothesis and seek to understand it.

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Dim is the operative word or just plain ignorant. I was simply not aware of the hungarian denomination forint and couldn't figure out what you were trying to say.

I was trying to translate what I took to be a mysterious code, perhaps known to everyone on the forum.

and I recalled forint being an occassional acronym for foreign intellgence.

Never having heard of the Hungarian forint, I tried to make sense of it by postulating possible meanings. I did not mean any disrespect by the comments. Chalk it up it to my ignorance of foreign currency. (my overseas time was largely spent WestPac, except for brief deployments to Iceland, Great Britain, Azores, Spain and Crete). Besides here we say '2' cents '20' totally threw me.

A4K, once again, I apologize, I honestly meant no disrespect to you.

 

[A4K]

Ok, I won't comment further here. This is a very sensitive subject for many people worldwide, and I personally would have the b@stards responsible strung up by the b@lls, whoever they are/were.

No hard feelings to anyone, I always have and will continue to respect you guys and your opinions. I just refuse to accept the given notion till I've seen all the facts (especially coming from the smiling face of George Bush.)
You will notice too I never said the US or Al Qaeda deinitely were or weren't responsible, only that there are still too many strange circumstances for this to be called a clean case.
(The renewal of the Bush family war against Iraq and consequent US posession of the oil certainly did not help the cause either, and is the point at which people started to question the whole scenario.)


One thing MM: I believe you are right - though there are alot of foreigners in Stockholm and Johanesburg, this attack was significant because New York is the capital of capitalism. Not many people believed the 'war against terrorism' line.

(Thanks too Mal, and Joe, I would like to read that article if you have a copy?)


Evan

 

[Readie]

For what its worth I don't buy the conspiracy theories about 9/11 or Lockerbie.
On 9/11 the British were shocked to our core, they said that everyone will remember where they where on that day.
We were outraged.. then we had the london bomb attacks...
Maybe America ,amidst all the carnage, also found out who her real friends are too.
Best wishes
John

 

[FLYBOYJ]

(Thanks too Mal, and Joe, I would like to read that article if you have a copy?)


Evan

9/11 Conspiracy Theories - Debunking the Myths - World Trade Center - Pentagon - Flight 93 - Popular Mechanics

 

[oldcrowcv63]

Thanks FJ, Great article... Aside from information that is downright false, one clue to the legitimacy of any claim to a conspiracy or event that stretches credulity? When it contains statements expressing either absolute (but unwarranted) certainty or an utterly unprovable inference. Sometimes found in unlikely combination:

examples from the PM article:

1. "Without a doubt, Flight 93 was shot down," Clearly evidence of an open minded inquiry of the events.

2. The main body of the engine ... was found miles away from the main wreckage site with damage comparable to that which a heat-seeking missile would do to an airliner." A dubious but authoritative statement evidently made by a person who has spent a lifetime studying heat seaking missile damage to airliners?? provable? I doubt it. key distractors: "comparable to" if its "comparable to," then obviously, it must be so.

 

[A4K]

Thanks Joe!

 

[woljags]

wow a very heated post and something that i hope never happens again in any country in the world,my wife Chris spent the day crying as the horrors unfolded,no matter who does it what to who, why can't we all learn to live in peace dispite our differences