parsifal
Colonel
its the 1st here. So, am i allowed to do a 1/72 805 sqn A-4 with the "Black Knight" Insignia. I think so, but Ive got to ask first in my opinion
GB.19 Aircraft Nose Art Introduction
- Thread starter Vic Balshaw
- Start date
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N4521U
Plastic Pirate
I'm taking it as "nose art" is Unique non-standard markings. Sharks would be because there was no Standard, each was done freehand and each was different. It was Authorized only after they were applied. Squadron Insignia does not apply. So as long as the marking is a personal marking on the plane.
This is my understanding.
This is my understanding.
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Those are that confuse me....them there blasted 'sharkmouths', first used by them glorious Brits in North Africa, right, then by AVG in China...and plenty more...
Maybe no standard but not really as unique as some....then again, the bird on 'Memphis Belle' was a Varga (am I right?), used all over, albeit with different names...
Plus those 'Banchees' skulls...
Ok...now I've got a headache!
Maybe no standard but not really as unique as some....then again, the bird on 'Memphis Belle' was a Varga (am I right?), used all over, albeit with different names...
Plus those 'Banchees' skulls...
Ok...now I've got a headache!
parsifal
Colonel
Im still not sure.
VF805 adopted the "Black Knight" (which for some illogical reason they called the "Black Rook" tail insignia after the elimination of the oversized red and white tail checker pattern at the extreme end of the tail. This checker patter had been authoprised as a small thin strip, but against RAN instructions, the 805 squadron from 1969 had enlarged them to the USN standard.
As far as i can tell, the squadron, having won that concession from the brass, when the "air superiority" greay and blue pattern was adopted (and the checkerboard pattern deleted by direct order, replaced this unauthorised (oversize) checker pattern with the "Black Knight" pattern. Im unsure whether the Black Knight, or black Rook was authorised, but it certainly was not placed where the squadron instructions later said that they should be placed (on the fuselage). for its entire existence the Black knights were displayed on the tail of the A-4s.
I would be the first to concede that as far as "flamboyance" or originality is concerned, this issue ranks pretty low on the scale. but for Australian aircraft, , particulalry FAA a/c, there just wasnt the fredoms granted that existed in the US and other nationalities. you were lucky, and definately "unauthorised" if you placed your squadron insignia somewhere else other than where you were allowed to put them, or made your tail markings bigger than allowed.
Here is a bit of history on VF805 that might help.
And below are images of the two schemes I am thinking about. The B&W photo shows the chequer pattermn, whilst the profile shows the Black Knight/Black Rook tail art.
Can I do either of these
Attachments
parsifal
Colonel
Anyway I'll edit my previous post because it looks like a rant
even if it isn't intended as one.I'd just like it clear out explained,
if bombers are the focus or ground attack, let us know, if for Nose Art it is going to be rebel all the way personal markings we'll all pick the one that corresponds for us
Although everyone is scratching their heads about my G6. You can all blame Wurger
(just joking ) he took pitty on me in my 6 months of hard intensive labor at work and with a misunderstanding in the rules I posted something that wasn't a bomber, because my interpretation of what is there was different , that and with a couple suggestions from friends I was itching to get back into modeling I'll post some updates on her in the next couple days, I've already started painting the interior and the layout with the Photo etch has started being added.
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dneid
Staff Sergeant
Ok, did this ever get sorted out? I think I am ok within the general Nose Art idea with what I am planning (if I can get my ass off these commercial flights and actually spend time at home).
I found an interesting decal (image below) set for Soviet B-25s that should be in next week. I like the idea and it would make for something VERY different on the shelf.
Dale
I found an interesting decal (image below) set for Soviet B-25s that should be in next week. I like the idea and it would make for something VERY different on the shelf.
Dale
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Airframes
Benevolens Magister
The way I see it, 'Nose Art' is just that - something applied to an aircraft which is not part of the official markings of the Air Force concerned, or part of a particular unit's official markings. For example, the shied of JG 26 would not qualify, and neither would the 'Firebird' of 56 Squadron. However, an 'extra' marking, such as an aircraft name, like 'Memphis Belle', and some pictorial image, would qualify.
Although a shark mouth would probably qualify, the whole idea of separate GBs is to provide variety of subject and colour scheme - it's far too easy to adapt a GB to fit a favourite subject, which results in seeing the same old subjects, in the form of Bf109s, Mustangs, Corsairs etc, time and time again, subjects which could have been covered in many of the GBs to date.
Obviously, with such a broad subject as 'Nose Art', many types will be seen again, but there are also hundreds, if not thousands, of other possibilities, where the outstanding feature is the Nose Art.
Could members please, therefore, look at the guidelines for this, and future GBs and, if necessary, ask questions to clarify a potential subject, before settling on an entry which may not be in the spirit of the particular GB. For example, an ordinary fighter aircraft with standard armaament doesn't really fit the description of 'Heavy Hitter', but that same type, fitted with bombs or rockets, and with a known history of being a devastating ground attack aircraft, would fit the criteria.
Finally, please remember that the GBs were originally planned to run for three months, with the extra month at the start, overlapping the previous GB, being intended to allow time to research, gather kits, decals, reference photos etc, and ask questions as needed. It is this extra month, over and above the time given from the date of the announcement of a GB, when all questions, debates, doubts, uncertainties etc should be covered.
Although a shark mouth would probably qualify, the whole idea of separate GBs is to provide variety of subject and colour scheme - it's far too easy to adapt a GB to fit a favourite subject, which results in seeing the same old subjects, in the form of Bf109s, Mustangs, Corsairs etc, time and time again, subjects which could have been covered in many of the GBs to date.
Obviously, with such a broad subject as 'Nose Art', many types will be seen again, but there are also hundreds, if not thousands, of other possibilities, where the outstanding feature is the Nose Art.
Could members please, therefore, look at the guidelines for this, and future GBs and, if necessary, ask questions to clarify a potential subject, before settling on an entry which may not be in the spirit of the particular GB. For example, an ordinary fighter aircraft with standard armaament doesn't really fit the description of 'Heavy Hitter', but that same type, fitted with bombs or rockets, and with a known history of being a devastating ground attack aircraft, would fit the criteria.
Finally, please remember that the GBs were originally planned to run for three months, with the extra month at the start, overlapping the previous GB, being intended to allow time to research, gather kits, decals, reference photos etc, and ask questions as needed. It is this extra month, over and above the time given from the date of the announcement of a GB, when all questions, debates, doubts, uncertainties etc should be covered.
meatloaf109
1st Lieutenant
Sorry, Igor. I should not have used your G-6 as a prop for my personal issue.Anyway I'll edit my previous post because it looks like a rant
I'd just like it clear out explained,
if bombers are the focus or ground attack, let us know, if for Nose Art it is going to be rebel all the way personal markings we'll all pick the one that corresponds for us
Although everyone is scratching their heads about my G6. You can all blame Wurger
I'll post some updates on her in the next couple days, I've already started painting the interior and the layout with the Photo etch has started being added.
You have my apologies.
Paul.
No need to apologize Paul
If you check my edits I meant my rants lol but yeah Ok so Question
Is the Iranian Sharkmouth Su-22 ok?
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Crimea_River
Marshal
My vote:
Iranian shark mouth -No - it's an airshow aircraft. So are stunt planes with Red Bull all over them.
Dale's B-25s - some of the schemes there are definite fits.
Black Knight - no - standard squadron mark.
More feeling that logic here but I'm with Terry. Let's get creative guys and pick some obvious ones, as there are thousands! - almost any US aircraft during WW2 had personalized nose art. How about Graf's colourful birds? Russian planes with the patriotic slogans. And don't forget WW1 - tons of possibilities there!
Iranian shark mouth -No - it's an airshow aircraft. So are stunt planes with Red Bull all over them.
Dale's B-25s - some of the schemes there are definite fits.
Black Knight - no - standard squadron mark.
More feeling that logic here but I'm with Terry. Let's get creative guys and pick some obvious ones, as there are thousands! - almost any US aircraft during WW2 had personalized nose art. How about Graf's colourful birds? Russian planes with the patriotic slogans. And don't forget WW1 - tons of possibilities there!
prem895
Staff Sergeant
Well I am going to do a Hase 1/32 fw190a-5 Graf's
dneid
Staff Sergeant
Hey, Andy,
Thanks. I am considering one of the last 3, leaning towards the 3rd one up. I just need to finish the Dora in the next couple of weeks.
Dale
Thanks. I am considering one of the last 3, leaning towards the 3rd one up. I just need to finish the Dora in the next couple of weeks.
Dale
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
That's what confuses moi...
Those sharkmouths of RAF and AVG... did they become 'official' with the RAF, since a, well....'handful' Tomahawks(?) were painted with them in North Africa and they painted all(?) P-40's in AVG with them while in China...
What does the history books say??
(Oh how I love causing headaches!)
Graf's and Hartmann's red and black 'tulips' qualify, since only they had them...
Edit:
No. 112 Squadron.
During July 1941, the squadron was one of the first in the world to become operational with the P-40 Tomahawk, which it used in both the fighter and ground attack role. Inspired by the unusually large air inlet on the P-40, the squadron began to emulate the "shark mouth" logo used on some German Messerschmitt Bf 110s of Zerstörer Geschwader 76 earlier in the war. (This practice was later followed by P-40 units in other parts of the world, including the Flying Tigers, American volunteers serving with the Chinese Air Force.) In December, the Tomahawks were replaced by the updated P-40 Kittyhawk, which the squadron used for the remainder of its time with the Desert Air Force, often as a fighter bomber.
Those sharkmouths of RAF and AVG... did they become 'official' with the RAF, since a, well....'handful' Tomahawks(?) were painted with them in North Africa and they painted all(?) P-40's in AVG with them while in China...
What does the history books say??
(Oh how I love causing headaches!)
Graf's and Hartmann's red and black 'tulips' qualify, since only they had them...
Edit:
No. 112 Squadron.
During July 1941, the squadron was one of the first in the world to become operational with the P-40 Tomahawk, which it used in both the fighter and ground attack role. Inspired by the unusually large air inlet on the P-40, the squadron began to emulate the "shark mouth" logo used on some German Messerschmitt Bf 110s of Zerstörer Geschwader 76 earlier in the war. (This practice was later followed by P-40 units in other parts of the world, including the Flying Tigers, American volunteers serving with the Chinese Air Force.) In December, the Tomahawks were replaced by the updated P-40 Kittyhawk, which the squadron used for the remainder of its time with the Desert Air Force, often as a fighter bomber.
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Hummm I just got a couple of new books on nose art's Jan, how may head aches can I cause you
You interested in a B-19
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Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Hmmmm....after seing the classy, old Monogram 1/72 B-36 at my local museum....B-I-G!
Aye, why not....go on then!
Aye, why not....go on then!
Hmmmm....after seing the classy, old Monogram 1/72 B-36 at my local museum....B-I-G!
Aye, why not....go on then!
Let me see if I can find it again, it flew in both WWII and the Korean war so it has a little bit of history
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Give you '10!
Let me see if I can find it again, it flew in both WWII and the Korean war so it has a little bit of history
LOL don't know if I will find it that fast. But I did find one call Good Humpin for you that flew 78 missions from India to China
prem895
Staff Sergeant
There is a nice b-29 Revell 1/48 offering. Cream of the Crop. Beyond my level of skill. I would love to see this beaut here. I do have it if anyone needs it
